I’ll make one more attempt.

Federation (X0) MC=1
--------------------
CA: 125
CAR: 129
CC: 137
CA+: 139
CAR+: 143
CC+: 147
CF: 161
CB: 162
BCF: 180
BCG: 180
BCJ: 197

That’s a 58% spread from top to bottom, before counting drone upgrades.

X2 can follow the same pattern. If you think a BCH(X2) should be 400 BPV then to mirror the increase seen in X0 a CA(X2) would be 250 BPV.

The CX(X1) is equivalent in form and mission to a CB(X0) or CB(X2). The CB is 30% above a CA (again, drone upgrades exacerbate this comparison). If the CA(X2) is 250 BPV then the 30% jump makes a CB(X2) 325 BPV; well above the 240 of the CX(X1).

Using this pattern we would end up with:

Federation (X2) MC=1 (Xorks=Y215)
--------------------
CA(X2) 250 (Y205)
CAR(X2) 258 (Y215)
CC (X2) 274 (Y205)
CA+(X2) 278 (Y210)
CAR+(X2) 286 (Y215)
CC+(X2) 294 (Y210)
CF(X2) 322 (Y?)
CB(X2) 324 (Y218)
BCF(X2) 360 (Y222)
BCG(X2) 360 (Y222)
BCJ(X2) 394 (Y225)

Why can’t we all get what we want?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 02:50 am: Edit

As log as t plays nice with GW, we can.

the higher the BPV, the more ticklish that gets.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 10:11 pm: Edit

Please answer the 2X poll I have started. It may help focus debate and start the first round of playtesting.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 09:24 pm: Edit

Seems that X2 BPV has again become a point of interest. This would be a better topic to have that conversation then the plasma thread.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 09:39 pm: Edit

NO!!!


I've got a better idea.

Let's talk about how damaging to the GW balance speed 48 Plasma Sobot will be in this thread.


In all seriousness, the only way to correctly test the BPV of the XCC is to build a 410 ( or whatever the XCC will be ) BPV super battleship and have a duel.
Whilst this is something the two Steves can do, it's something we can not.
Let's just follow the clues and see where that leads us.
After all, the BPV of these ships is not our call but rather the call of the two Steves when ( if ) X2 becomes published.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 10:31 pm: Edit

I don't see how building a special ship will tell us anything useful about how a X2 will handle in combat.

I'd prefer to build several bettleforces.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 10:48 pm: Edit

I'd prefer CA(X2-Y205) be 250 BPV. The expensive upgrades will come when the Xorks arrive. See January 30, 2003 at the top of this page.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 11:08 pm: Edit

X2 is *less* expensive than X1?!?

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 11:12 pm: Edit

No. X2(Y205) = X1. Maximizes playability. The neato expensive gadgets show up as refits to fight off the Xork.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 11:17 pm: Edit

But that's not X2. That's X1.

At best X1R.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 11:24 pm: Edit

Call it what you will but its new hulls on new SSDs and built in Y205. You say potato.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 11:42 pm: Edit

Tos,

No, there is a difference.

X2 is the Next Big Thing. The next big jump in technology. It's more apples and oranges.

Now peronally, I'd prefer to give X1 a longer run before intorducing X2. So yes, I would also prefer to see X1R --production X1-tech-- dominate the scene prior to the Xorks.

I'm not sure SVC sees things that way, hence X2's scheduled introduction in Y205.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 12:05 am: Edit

Why does an X2 CC ned to be in the 400 range?

An X1 CA over a GW BCH is only ~50-75 point greater. An X2 CA should be about 300-325, with a X2 CC being about 350.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 12:07 am: Edit

At 300-350, that puts a X2 Cruiser fighting about 3xCW.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 12:13 am: Edit

Unfortunately the ISC CCX comes in at 315 BPV so you need to be looking at 330 minimum for the XCC of any other race.


The XCC of each race will fall somewhere between 330 and 410.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 01:13 am: Edit

"X2 is the Next Big Thing. The next big jump in technology."

This is the thinking that will make X2 difficult (impossible?) to balance and no fun to play cross-generational battles. I am suggesting we change that thinking.

"Now personally, I'd prefer to give X1 a longer run before introducing X2. So yes, I would also prefer to see X1R --production X1-tech-- dominate the scene prior to the Xorks. I'm not sure SVC sees things that way, hence X2's scheduled introduction in Y205."

That's really the point isn't it? I am proposing what you state you want. X1 level ships on newly designed hulls built in Y205 to fight the trade wars, 'next big thing' ships in Y225 to fight the Xorks. Ignore the nomenclature and preconceived notions attached to the nomenclature and I think you will find you can have everything you want.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 01:14 am: Edit

See, MJC, just because the ISC have a ship that big, does not mean we have to make the rest of them that bog. The ISC ships are generally bigger then the other GW race counterparts.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 01:20 am: Edit

"Unfortunately the ISC CCX comes in at 315 BPV so you need to be looking at 330 minimum for the XCC of any other race."

CCX(X1) ships go from 220 to 315 BPV. Just because the ISC wants to build a 315+ ship as an improvement over their X1 design doesn't mean every other race would target the same number. Each race would look to improve the ships they currently have in service. If you insist that your definition of improve means more BPV then that means CC(X2) for some should be 220+, a full 100 points below your assumption.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 08:04 am: Edit

Once again. I will remind everyone of the Poll. And the results.

---

Quote:

1. What BPV should an Fed/Klink XCC have. Keeping in mind a possible 1X BCHX being around 300-325. (The ISC CCX is 315 but the ISC CC is just about a BCH in firepower anyway.)
A. 250-300 (3)
B. 300-350 (7)
C. 350-400 (5)
D. 400+
E. Undecided (2)

2. Should traditionally high BPV races (BP in general) maintain the:
A. Same relative spread on BPV (4)
B. Shrink the relative spread on BPV (8)
C. Undecided (3)
D. Case by Case per race. (2)

---

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 10:58 am: Edit

I think you should poll again. Not that I think the polls are a good source of data, but it might convince some others.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 11:39 am: Edit

Boy, I thought this was already hashed out.

First, IIRC, we had desided that X1R and X2 should comingle on the time line with X2 building up slowly but fast enough to slow the Xorks and finally be what stops the Xorks.

BPV: MJC asked SVC about BPV a bit ago. Basically it seemed that SVC was not too conserned with BPV levels. But that doesn't meen that we as players should be. I am. First, there is the difference of using the BPV improvements, or the Percentage improvements to target X2 BPV. There is a big difference. Ultimatly though, these ships should be designed first and if found to be too capable, then scaled back. The opposite is true as well.

I have a pretty well worked out idea of what the X2 ships should look like and I find my self less and less concerned as to what their BPV will be as long as they are balanced (class to class). I would, however, like to keep them as low as possible while still having them be fully capable. This is a phylosophy the Empires would have as well. To build a 400 BPV ship just to have it be 400 is a waste when a 300 BPV will do the job.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 02:57 pm: Edit

Tos,

I feel it important to keep the terminology straight or communication breaks down. Especially if we develop a different dialect than the eventual game designer.

Production X1 isn't "X2", it's production X1 or "X1R."

That's one of the few good things to come out of Commanders X2--the definition of what the generation following X-tech is called.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 03:07 pm: Edit

Untill SVC says differently, X2 starts in Y205, period. There may be concurrent production of X1R, but unless he's open to "X2 plus", the X2 in Y205 is what we have to work with.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Loren,

I thought we had this stuff nailed down too.

BPV is a touchy thing and I've sung that song to death, but it's the only reason to care about BPV differences.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 03:58 pm: Edit

I agree that terminology is important. I don't agree that there is general agreement on the definitions. Until there is the terminology is more confusing than helpful.

Regarding X2, some people want bigger, some people want smaller. Some want wiz-bang, some want small improvements tech. Some people want a stand-alone module, some want a product that integrates cleanly with X0 and X1. I want it all. I believe that we can have it all simply by massaging the timeline. A series of X2 tuned for cross-generational battle during the trade wars and a series of X2 refits to fight off the Xork.

What follows is my suggestion for how to have it all.

In Y205 the empires began producing all new hulls and SSDs known as X2. X0 and X1 hulls used technology fundamentally unchanged for 100 years. These tired old hulls had exceeded the limits of their design and could be pushed no further. The X2 hulls were a remarkable improvement in efficiency and flexibility but it would take years and a deadly foe before their full capability would be exploited. The Y205 designs were nearly equal in combat to the X1 ships they replaced (read: maximum inter-generational playability) but their reduced operating costs and efficiency made the X1 designs economically obsolete. Each race began offloading their surplus X0, XP and X1 designs to any independent planet in need of a garrison force. Small refits of the Y205 classes occurred during the ensuing Trade Wars but treaty limitations kept the races in technological equilibrium. All that changed when the Xorkellians invaded. War versions of the flexible X2 ships were rushed into production at prodigious rates and wartime innovation continued to build more and more powerful vessels.

In this way X2 won't break the existing game, the trade wars will be a fun free-for-all time and people get the big bad to fight the Xorks.