Much like our world, we are only going to stop a % of the smuggling/clandestine operation.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, December 31, 2017 - 10:59 pm: Edit

We are approaching the anniversary date of this topics start. if its not too presumptuous, lets us repost SPPs last updated list.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 - 05:42 pm: Edit


Going back to SVC's list of possible variants of the APT and revising it for Free Traders

AC: Armed cutter, already published

NOTE: The above would obviously be considered already published as the "Prime Corvette" (R1.85)

APA: SFG version isn't going to happen.

NOTE: Status Unchanged, there is no point to a Stasis Field Generator on a ship this small.

APB: dunno

NOTE: With nothing to compare to, there is nothing to suggest.

APC: commando version, plausible, have we done it?

NOTE: This is the Free Trooper (R1.43).

APD: drone version, seems subsumed into AC.

NOTE: As with the APT to APD, this seems covered by the Prime Corvette.

APE: escort, plausible, have we done it?

NOTE: Possible variant of the Prime Corvette?

APF: fast carrier resupply, plausible, have we done it?

NOTE:The Basic Free Trader lacks weapons, probably not worth installing limited aegis. But put a ready rack in the shuttle bay, convert some of the cargo to quarters and use the rest to deliver supplies. Basically the basic Free Trader is already a sort of fast carrier resupply ship, even if it lacks the ready rack. Not sure converting it further for the mission would be worthwhile.

APG: guided weapon version, AC covers it.

NOTE: As with APT variant, the Prime Corvette covers this.

APH: Silo type-H drone, might do this if silos are ever approved, which isn't likely.

NOTE: No change.

API: Investivative ship for police, sort of a CSI team? Plausible.

NOTE: Probably a job the Prime Trader (R1.67) performs.

APJ: Penal variant, plausible, have we done it?

NOTE: Not sure the Klingons would build a penal Prime Corvette.

APK: killer combat variant, unlikely, AC is it.

NOTE: No change.

APL: Leader variant, why?

NOTE: No change.

APM: minefield maintenance proposal by Petrick, plausible but little more than a target.

NOTE: As noted elsewhere, the Free Trader variant was proposed by someone else, and at the time I did not think much of it, because I missed the fact that minelaying freighters show up almost 20 years after minelaying and minesweeping shuttles. So I have (also as noted) accepted that minelaying variants of Free Trades might have been the first minelayers used.

APN: diplomatic version, plausible but little more than a target.

NOTE: See this as just a use of the Luxury Fast Transport (R1.65).

APO: No idea what this would be.

NOTE: As with the "Fleet Oilers," I said I could see an APT variant, an I can also see a Free Trader variant. But such are just targets as part of special convoys and just not of interest in themselves.

APP: PFT version with two PFs, not sure what it would be used for, would NOT be used in teams of three for a regular flotilla.

NOTE: Not sure I want to go here. Free Traders strike me as too small to operate PFs.

APQ: survey ship, too small to go very far but perhaps usable in "next star system" missions, plausible, but only a target.

NOTE: This has appeared as a suggestion in fiction, and we could develop an SSD, but otherwise it would be rather small and not much more than a target.

APR: repair ship? Seems unlikely to have enough systems to matter, but maybe a patch and pray concept?

NOTE: Probably something could be done. Convert 33% of cargo to repair, convert 33% of cargo to hull (repair crews), and retain 33% to carry the spare parts and etc.?

APS: Scout, too small for much use, perhaps colony defense support unit?

NOTE: Could be done as a variant of the Prime Corvette.

APT: Traffic Control, plausible but only a target.

NOTE: No change.

APU: Theater transport to move pods around? Plausible but only a target.

NOTE: Not sure I want mini-tugs to keep proliferating.

APV: carrier with four fighters? Plausible but of any real use?

NOTE: Already done as the FEV (R1.84).

APW: Wartime version, not sure where to go.

NOTE: This is pretty much the Prime Corvette.

APX: X-tech? Really?

NOTE: Already exists (R1.205).

APY: Early Years variant? Have we really never done this?

NOTE: Already exists (YR1.11).

APZ: Not sure what Z stands for, weapons test platform?

NOTE: As with the APZ, a variant like this would be too small to test some weapons (plasma-S and larger, PPDs).

APT Tank/vehicle landing ship: Probably exists but the game has the Free Tanker which does the job better, nobody would pay for us and it would cost us time (which is money) to do one.

NOTE: Already exists as the Free Tanker (R1.42)/

APT fuel tanker: Probably exists for local use but it's just a target, nobody would pay for it, and there is no functional difference between it and a regular APT.

NOTE: Commented on above.

Unarmed priority transport: The stock APT barely has weapons as it is. Would enough space be freed to create another cargo box? Would anyone care?

NOTE: Doubtful anyone would be interested.

Comments:
APE: escort, plausible, have we done it?

NOTE: Possible variant of the Prime Corvette?

jsw comment. I suspect that making this ship a legal option will be popular for fighter using empires, and the Kzintis might actually convert a number of these ships to light carrier escort, freeing up limited frigate production for other duty. should be limited to one APE per each six month F&E game turn.

APF: fast carrier resupply, plausible, have we done it?

NOTE:The Basic Free Trader lacks weapons, probably not worth installing limited aegis. But put a ready rack in the shuttle bay, convert some of the cargo to quarters and use the rest to deliver supplies. Basically the basic Free Trader is already a sort of fast carrier resupply ship, even if it lacks the ready rack. Not sure converting it further for the mission would be worthwhile.

jsw comment. another popular option for F&E fighter using empires. probably needs to be limited to no more the one such hull produced by any means (substitution,refit etc.)

APH: Silo type-H drone, might do this if silos are ever approved, which isn't likely.

jswile comment. might be better to consider a hospital ship variant. based on a APT or PT hull, would result in a hospital ship variant with a higher tactical speed than any freighter hull.

APM: minefield maintenance proposal by Petrick, plausible but little more than a target.

NOTE: As noted elsewhere, the Free Trader variant was proposed by someone else, and at the time I did not think much of it, because I missed the fact that minelaying freighters show up almost 20 years after minelaying and minesweeping shuttles. So I have (also as noted) accepted that minelaying variants of Free Trades might have been the first minelayers used.

jsw comment. no F&E impact. should be included if Middle Years module is ever published.

APR: repair ship? Seems unlikely to have enough systems to matter, but maybe a patch and pray concept?

NOTE: Probably something could be done. Convert 33% of cargo to repair, convert 33% of cargo to hull (repair crews), and retain 33% to carry the spare parts and etc.?

jsw comment. might not be useable by Star Fleet or any empire star navy, but Major Planets in an empire (with its own reserve and police ships) might want to have a limited mobile repair capacity, but cant afford a full size repair ship or tug pod (s). might be basis for a future rules module for a planetary navy support ships?

\purple[APS: Scout, too small for much use, perhaps colony defense support unit?

NOTE: Could be done as a variant of the Prime Corvette.

jsw comment. another planetary navy support unit for a future R module?

APT Tank/vehicle landing ship: Probably exists but the game has the Free Tanker which does the job better, nobody would pay for us and it would cost us time (which is money) to do one.

jsw comment. possible support ship for free tanker/free trooper? instead of sending the free tanker or free trooper all the way back to pick up replacements from home world hex, send a APT variant?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 01, 2018 - 01:05 pm: Edit

As was noted a long time ago, the problem with an APT variant as a heavy vehicle delivery system is that APTs are not designed to land on planets. Which makes it an extremely poor vessel to deliver tanks under any kind of combat conditions. A standard Free Trader is better at the job than any modified APT because the Free Trader can land to offload tanks. A modified APT would require an enlarged shuttle bay to carry an HTS shuttle to land tanks (one at a time making round trips for each such delivery), and if the HTS is destroyed at any point ...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, January 01, 2018 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Steve, it appears that I did not communicate my meaning to you. I am sorry.

The point is not that the APT variant as a heavy vehicle delivery system can't land on planets. It's that the speed of the APT can make the time required to pick up a new load of tanks or vehicles from where ever the factory is located... (I assumed it would be at home world/capital world of a given empire.) this assumes that the APT is faster than any vanilla freighter (large or small).

To be fair to you, I should have conceded that any stock APT could complete that mission, it does not have to be a specialized variant design.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 01, 2018 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Pick up the tanks and do what with them?

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Monday, January 01, 2018 - 03:04 pm: Edit

The APT speed has been noted before, in the Speed is relative post.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, January 01, 2018 - 03:07 pm: Edit

Can you lower a tank to the surface with a tractor beam?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 01, 2018 - 03:07 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

It is questionable that any "stock" APT could do the job. The problem is that such a "stock" APT has a shuttle bay able to normally hold and operate an admin shuttle. While it is possible to land an HTS shuttle into such a bay, that shuttle cannot be loaded with cargo (much less a tank) in such a condition. The upshot is that a "transfer" location would be needed where the APT could off-load the cargo onto some other unit that would then load it onto something able to deliver the tank to a planetary surface.

That doubtless happens normally (tanks are loaded onto a bulk cargo hauler, then transferred to a battle station/base station/other orbital or deep space base, which then loads them onto a Free Trader or a Free Tanker as appropriate.

There is no point to a "specialized" variant of an APT to do the job if said variant does not have the capability to make the "final delivery," that is land the cargo on a planetary surface.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Monday, January 01, 2018 - 06:03 pm: Edit

Everything is air-droppable at least once.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, January 02, 2018 - 12:04 am: Edit

Or as a sky-diving instructor used to say:

"You will hit the ground no matter what you do. The state you are in depends on how well you prepared beforehand and how you performed on the way down."

Basically get some rubber bumpers from a hardware store and stick them on the tank. Then everything should be fine.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 02, 2018 - 12:29 am: Edit

Use the main gun to counter gravity to soften fall, and aim for a lake.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, January 02, 2018 - 10:30 am: Edit

Ok, so a APT Tank landing ship is not an option.

There were 27 posted variants by SVC, commented on by SPP, (28, if you count my suggestion to change the APH from a type S missile boat to a Hospital Ship variant), of which I offered comments on just 7 of them.

Any other suggestions, changes or comments?

By Marc Michalik (Kavik_Kang) on Tuesday, January 02, 2018 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Ships of this size would be very common among civilians, although they would not be likely to have access to the specific military model that the APT represents. In my own universe I have a lot of marine/medical (they are nearly synonymous in my own lore) variants, but SFB doesn't have many of those. Still, the APT is exactly the size ship that the marine and medical branches would be likely to find useful. National Guard, as well.

So there might be a "Search & Rescue" variant of this class used by marines, nat guard, and police. It's like a flying MASH unit with "ambulance-like" shuttles. Can support ground combat operations for the marines or respond to local incidents for nat guard and/or police.

There might also be a "mobile marine HQ" variant, like an orbital command center for ground operations. In SFB terms, a flying "Marine Flag Bridge".

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, January 02, 2018 - 03:19 pm: Edit

If there is no space threat the ideal mobile Marine HQ is probably just a detached troop pod dropped off by a tug or a freighter. Has the barracks, shuttles, and transporters you need.

For a search and rescue operation I think the police would just use normal police ships. They are around.

While an APT could do medical work if modified I wonder if there is a need. It could probably handle medical support for a ground conflict but if there is a ground conflict there are already assets in place to support the troops. Commando ships and troop freighters almost certainly have the medical facilities needed to support their troop load. Adding a separate APT to a ground campaign seems to me just putting a small and not well-defended unit into a combat zone for minimal gain.

While ambulance style shuttles would be neat I don't see much need for them either. You can put medical equipment into a standard admin shuttle and most wounded extractions would be done more quickly by transporter. If the area is too dangerous for a ship to get close enough to transport then the shuttles are almost certainly going to die if they try and the APT variant has no business being there.

I could see a specialized medical APT built as a fast-reaction unit to deal with plague outbreaks or other large health crises. You have it in the province capital and, if something comes up, you activate the reserves, pull in specialists, and rush to the site while slower freighter-speed assets follow to support it when they arrive. I just cannot see a combat support unit of a similar type being built.

By Marc Michalik (Kavik_Kang) on Tuesday, January 02, 2018 - 03:40 pm: Edit

It would be like a mobile MASH unit, that is the point. It would be a very useful ship to marines, nat guard, and police. It is the little brother of the navy hospital ships.

The ground force HQ variant would also be a very useful ship for the marines and rescue forces to have. A tug is slow, not really appropriate for rapid-response first responders.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 03:25 am: Edit

A mobile MASH unit sounds more like an element of a ground assault support unit. If you were invading a populated planet with its own defense troops, after destroying the PDU ground stations (things like ground based phaser 4 modules, hanger units for the PDU fighter squadrons, and the ground garrison) you deploy troops to kill, capture or render impotent the ground maneuver PDU troops.

I assume that means sending in your own infantry, tanks, APCs, combat engineers etc. supporting troops in the field means a MASH unit... that could simply be army support unit based using tents, trucks, trailers etc. doesn't necessarily require a APT variant.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 09:44 am: Edit

A tug is only slow if it is overloaded with pods. An APT is not that much faster than a warship if it is any faster. I am trying to envision a scenario where you need this MASH unit in a ground combat situation and you need it to arrive very quickly. I still think you would have to send ground troops as well to any conflict zone so why not put the MASH unit equivalent with the troops being sent? Why do you need a separate ship to carry it around?

If the ground troops are already in place they already have medical support on site. If they are being overwhelmed with casualties then they need more troops as well as more medics. When is this unit ever called on to operate in a situation where troops are also not on the way and the medical support could arrive on the same ship?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 10:07 am: Edit

Could be a good match for the FEM on assignment to a medical emergency on a populated planet.

By Marc Michalik (Kavik_Kang) on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 01:54 pm: Edit

It would be a critical element of disaster relief and ground operations. You have medics on the scene, you have navy hospital ships with the fleet. The "MASH ships" exist to get those who need immediate surgical care from the battlefield/disaster to a fully capable hospital/hospital ship both as quickly as possible, and with the facilities and personnel to begin necessary surgical procedures on route to a "fully capable" hospital. It's like an ambulance with the capability of putting patients into surgery immediately, on the way to a fully capable surgical center of some type.

You would need a specialist ship for this, with dedicated surgical facilities to begin working on the most severe cases before they even get to the fully capable hospital.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Seems unnecessarily complex. So the ship shows up, picks up the wounded, and takes them to a better medical facility with some medics on hand to keep them alive?

Seems like it would make more sense to make the ship itself a fully capable hospital and dispense with having to ferry people back and forth. It means that when the MASH ship is flying off to deliver the wounded there is no MASH ship in orbit to pick up the wounded. Even with an APT it could take days or even weeks to reach a planet or ship that can handle the problem and then fly back.

I could see ships ferrying the stable and recovering wounded from a ground conflict away for treatment once they are stabilized but you do not need a specialized ship for this. You want to keep the medics at the conflict zone and not babysitting patients who are going to be okay.

The ambulance analogy does not really work. An ambulance that takes you several days to get to a hospital is going to mean the patients die on the way. Instead you operate like a MASH unit and stabilize the wounded and treat them in the field and send them home on the next available ship going that way. This is akin to putting the wounded on a modern hospital ship and then sailing it back to the US before you do the surgery needed.

By Marc Michalik (Kavik_Kang) on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 05:34 pm: Edit

You are dancing all around it there...

Someone is seriously injured in battle or a disaster of some kind. Medic stabilize them to get the too a MASH unit, a MASH does emergency surgeries that keep people alive long enough to get them too get to a fully capable hospital/surgical center.

There are lots of reasons for a ship like this to exist. Local facilities are overloaded during a situation like this, this ship can keep people alive while bringing them to more distant facilities (like the navy hospital ships of the fleet, for example).

If SFB players aren't getting this, maybe that's because this fits more into my own universe than it does into SFB. In my own universe "marine" and "medical" are practically synonymous, so maybe this makes a lot more sense there than it does here.

It was just a suggestion...

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 06:48 pm: Edit

Easy way:

1) Marine is injured.
2) Medic beams him into the pocket transporter buffer.
3) Medic uploads file to triage center for evaluation.
4) Marine is re-materialized in sick bay for treatment.

Efficient way:

1) Marine is injured.
2) Medic vaporizes Marine to prevent capture and stop that incessant screaming.
3) Marine is re-materialized in ready room using pre-drop scan data.

Actually, given the energy levels involved with the weapons at hand, will there really be that many injured Marines? Anyone who takes a hit in combat is either red mist or a puff of smoke, so is the MASH unit mostly for industrial accidents out on the flight line (civilian disasters aside)?

By Marc Michalik (Kavik_Kang) on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Too the nat guard and police these ships would be mostly used in disaster relief.

The marines would use them to get the most seriously injured, those who will not survive without immediate surgery, into surgery immediately. Even before reaching the "fully capable" surgical center that can complete the work they need. Marines are, presumably, attacking a hostile planet. Their wounded need to be brought somewhere else, presumable the navy's fleet hospital ships.

In a marine/ground combat setting these ships would be for those not expected to survive the trip from the ground medic station to the fleet hospital ship. The ones who need to be in surgery within minutes or they will die.

By Marc Michalik (Kavik_Kang) on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 07:33 pm: Edit

I should also mention that I don't have Star Fleet Marines, so I don't know how SVC wound up handling transporters in ground combat. But, realistically, my vision of that has always been "if it's not shielded it's dead". Ground "transporter bombs" or "transporter artillery" would be a wonder weapon and any active battlefield would necessarily need to be blocking transporters through shielding or electronic jamming. If the enemy were not doing that, they would be at your mercy and there would be no reason to risk your own people fighting them. You would just offer them an ultimatum to surrender or die within minutes to a mass transporter bomb attack.

So if you can transport your wounded out you shouldn't have wounded to begin with, because it would be crazy to get your people killed in a conventional fight when you have the capability to activate transporters and just wipe them out with T-Artillery. I assume that using transporters to evacuate wounded would not be an option, because if you could transport into the battlefield the enemy would be at your mercy and there would be no reason to fight them conventionally.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 11:12 pm: Edit

Yes, the police boat would usually be the first on-scene for accidents and disasters. As such, the Fed POL, with a crew of a hundred, has ten recovery beds and four trauma / surgery beds in sick bay. Presumably other empires would have similar facilities on their police boats.


Garth L. Getgen