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	Archive through March 22, 2002	25		03/22 10:31pm

The idea of rebellians is good. Imagine that the general is a bit like WW2 in its scope, except somewhat more ruinous on the economies (as a longer war).
What happened after WW2? I can think of numerous wars up to the present day, but the key feature is that the main protagonists in WW2 have not fought each other again directly. In many of those wars, the US/UK/Soviet union etc. supplied outdated arms (read non X-tech) had vested interests, and they often sent troops, but they never actually geared up to a wartime economy (although you could argue that the soviets were on a persistent wartime economy).
The other key feature of post war conflicts is that superpowers have occasionally lost - because it was not worth their while sending in enough troops to win (read Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea). I have no doubt that the US *could* have won vietnam easily if it could commit itself fully - both politically and morally - but that was not the nature of the conflict.

So yes, there is plenty of opportunity for rebellions in border areas, where no persistent control has occurred. Indeed, there may even be cases where some races may actively *support* a new border nation (e.g. an F&E equivalent to the current afghanistan situation). And there would be hotpotch fleets (read northern alliance), possibly with superpower support (US) facing other hotpotch fleets (Taleban/Al Quaida) - or maybe a superpower (hydrans/UK) trying to face down an enemy-sponsered rebellion (Bargentine with new name/argentina) with streched supply lines and limited resources.

I can think of quite a few possibilities here - there is *every* reason to suppose that rebellions would be realistic, and would occur with outdated equiment and all sorts of strange situations.

By Robert Crapnell (Robc) on Monday, April 01, 2002 - 06:32 am: Edit

Hmm. Tomorrow is the twentieth aniversery of the Argentine invasion of the Falklands.

Rob

By Jeff Williams (Jeff) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 03:08 am: Edit

I seem to recall that someone suggested that this might make a decent mini-campaign instead of a full-fledged war.

Oh yeah, I did. *s*

Actually there have been several proposed mini-campaigns over the years for colony worlds to revolt against their national superiors. The Klingons are a perennial favorite due to their political/social structure.

I believe making one take place inside the Federation would be much more entertaining. If nothing more, it would make for some amusing special rules and victory conditions for the war-weary peacenik feds.

By Derek Lenzi (Catdude) on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 08:51 pm: Edit

Perhaps these wars could be called the Reconsolidation Wars. Focusing on the Klingons, all the subjects who entertained notions of independence in the wake of the ISC and Andro invasions, the masters pick them off in detail, time period:CY205-225.

By Jim Cummins (Jimcummins) on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 01:05 pm: Edit

Could have an SSJ "history” where the numerous subjects actually throw off the yoke. Some newly freed would try to stand on their own some ask Federation protection, some Hydran protection, some go over the Cats. Now you could have a number of border skirmishes. With systems that are given Federation, protection, that are over run by Tholians or Kzinti, or re-conquered by the remaining Klingons. Similarily for Hydran protection, and as for the Cats, they don't need a reason to haggle over the border systems, even if they are formerly Klingon territory.

The same would work for a Romulan, or Federation collapse.

By Stuart C. Brennen (Evlstu) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 01:42 pm: Edit

According to something I read WAAY back; most of the other nations expected the Federation to breakup in a civil war OR turn into a dictatorship/empire.

By Randy Buttram (Peregrine) on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 02:57 pm: Edit

Well, Paramount's depiction of the Federation makes it arguably a socialist tyranny in all but name. I sincerely hope that the SFU Federation continues in the SFU tradition of differentiation from what Paramount has done to the Trek universe.

By Stuart C. Brennen (Evlstu) on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 01:36 pm: Edit

Follow up on my previous post: The source was Federation Space, which I don't think can be considered as part of the SFB universe.

By John Trauger (Vorlon) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Fed Space is the precursor to Fed & Empire.

Just check to make sure the background info is still correct.

By Stuart C. Brennen (Evlstu) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 03:03 am: Edit

That info. was from Federation Space. It was a precusor to F&E and isn't considered part of the SFB universe (as far as I know). I can't believe I still have my copy.
Anyhow, there were two hypothetical scenarios. The first stated in the background that most of the other nations expexted the Federation to either breakup or evolve into an empire (then goes on to say they were wrong). The scenario itself is about all the surrounding nations grabbing whatever they could from a Federation that did fall apart.
The second was a Klingon Civil War. The Kzinti border and Northern Reserve fleets were on one side and the Hydran border and Southern Reserve fleets were on the other side. All the other Klingons were neutral.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 10:07 am: Edit

Federation Space cannot be considered a part of the Star Fleet Universe. Indeed, one of my contracts with TFG way back when required them to drop that product and never reprint it.

It cannot really be called a precursor of F&E. It was more like a botched attempt to do F&E.

By Stuart C. Brennen (Evlstu) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 02:44 am: Edit

I know, but I liked it and it was fun and easy to play. While rereading some of the earlier posts my memory got jodged. Besides, you may not be able to do Fed space but you can still do Klingon Civil War and Fed's turn imperial or disintegrate scenarios for F&E (hint, hint).

By Craig Horvath (Rslayer) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 05:41 am: Edit

Ah, one thing I've notice that's missing from this thread, and it fits in perfectly with the product idea, after the Gen war/ISC pacification, didn't the Roms fight a really nasty civil war? I seem to remember a King Eagle X1 tech conversion done as a desperation move by one of the sides.....or did this get swept away under the Patrick Duffey escape clause of X2?

If not, this would be an excellent mini-campaign for this product.

Overall I like the idea & the feel for thisproduct. If it ever does see the store shelves...I'd buy it.

Of course, thats just my opinion, I could be wrong...............

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 09:06 am: Edit

T10, the Romulan Civil War mini-campaign featuring the KEX was already published in X1. No sense publishing it again since you couldn't play the KEX without the X1 rule book anyways.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 10:42 am: Edit

Craig Horvath;

The KEX is in Module X.

By Stuart C. Brennen (Evlstu) on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 02:30 am: Edit

I think I remember reading somrthing about both sides in the Rom "civil" war wanting to keep everyone's loses to a minimum. In fact, theres are scenario were it mension in the "historical results" that a Rom. commander was relieved for destroying (as opposed to crippling or hurting) an enemy flagship.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 10:01 pm: Edit

There is another question that can be raised--
The "semi independent enclave." While an openly rebellious region would be crushed, forces providing, what about one that was in a state of "semi-revolt."
Say a planet in Klingon space revolts, but does not proclaim revolt against the empire, rather the obviously corrupt governor who is running his own show.
That would give the central authorities some wiggle room, and could see skirmishes and raids, while they try to either force them back into the fold unilaterally, or negotiate a reasonable peace that has them back inside the empire with some perks.
Remember, quite apart from politics, worlds are resource and resupply point, and if a fight to the death results in destroyed battlestations and logistics points, the empire will have to pay for them to be repaired-- and likely for the other now isolated regions to be supplied from elsewhere.

The advantage of that is that it coudl be done without overly monkeying with the SFU chronology. The Klingon empire is not ripped apart by rebellions in Y180...but if it was a short and small fight, resulting in a few hexes with preferential trade protections, you can shoehorn it in without having too many difficulties-- perhaps a local klingon governor revolts against his "to the death" DSF companions, trying to prevent a battle that will have the Feds deveastating his planets ina doomed fight. Depending on how things turn out, he could be shot for treason or celebrated for saving the empires worlds.
As for post Unity fights, unfortunately, until X2 comes out, there's no way to tell, as technology will have an impact on it, specifically, if its possible for non-X and X1 ships to raise a credible threat to X2 ships.

By George M. Ebersole (George) on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 07:08 am: Edit

Gotta love it when you take a nap earlier in the day and can't sleep.

To help refire this thread; I was watching a couple of TOS DVDs; "Journey to Babel," "Amok Time," and a couple of other episodes. Anyway, Kirk implies (actually states) in his logs and dialogue in the show that the Federation is just that; a Federation of Planets; that each is a sovereign state/power with its own military forces in addition to Star Fleet. In fact he states that some members have actually fought wars with one another during his time as a starship captain. On what scale and how long these wars lasted he does not say, but the inference is that Star Fleet acts as a proxy force for the Federation as a whole, and doesn't get involved in "domestic disputes," so to speak. Though they do come as a show of force when peace is declared (or at least did one time).

This being the case, I think some kind of "civil war" campaign for the Feds might be interesting. I don't know that it would always manifest itself through starship battles, and I don't know what part Star Fleet would play, but it's something to ponder. I think the obvious one of Star Fleet verse Orion is a no brainer, but surely there're other possibilities.

*yawn* Wish I could sleep