In light of Matthew Lawson's proposed re-design of the Orion war destroyer for use on Shapeways (as posted here), I was thinking of how this hullform might be extended further - and what, if any, motivation a given Orion cartel might have to do so.

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The Organization of the Orion Fleet article from Captain's Log #45 and Away Team Log speaks of the distinction - such as it is - between "pirate" crews (who may, or may not, be independent contractors to a given cartel), "enforcer" crews (who are in the service of a given Crimelord directly), and "mercenary" crews (who see themselves as "professional military", and often never engage in actual piracy).

In the latter case, my thinking was that, perhaps, an enlarged version of Matthew's DW hullform might have been produced by certain cartels for use as mercenary ships, as a cheaper (or at least easier to build) alternate to the heavy war destroyer. Such ships could see service as "private military contractors" across the Alpha Octant, but might be most prominent in the Orion Enclave (due to the more direct access the Dragon Cartel has to graduates from the Orion military academy, and the needs of the Enclave's government to bolster its own defences during the General War and the Andromedan War) and in the WYN Cluster (where the Cluster Cartel may see a need to station its own ships in support of the WYN Navy, and in defence of its own shipyard).

And just as there are DWX and HWX SSDs in Module X1R, perhaps one or more of these CW hulls might be built up to "peacetime construction" standards, in order to have advanced technology applied to it.

Indeed, might one or more of the "mercenary" Orion ships sent to take part in Operation Unity have been of either type?

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I'll admit that, before seeing Matthew's proposed DW design yesterday, I was not particularly keen on the war destroyer hullform, at least that which is used in the Starline 2500 miniature range.

That said, I like the concept of Matthew's DW representing ships which, ostensibly at least, show more of a "veneer of respectability" (or perhaps "plausible deniability") relative to the "classic" Orion Pirate hullforms, yet which carry enough design cues to show that they were still built in the same shipyard.

And also, just as some DWs and DWXs (and HDWs and HWXs) found themselves being used for less than "legitimate business" purposes, I suppose there may be the occasional CW or CWX captain who might find themselves engaging in acts of piracy of their own...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, March 06, 2018 - 11:05 am: Edit

I think the BR might be the Orion CW?

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Tuesday, March 06, 2018 - 11:18 am: Edit

The BR matches the CW profile in weapons, for an Orion, engine size, and date of deployment.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, March 06, 2018 - 12:44 pm: Edit

While the Battle Raider may fit the bill for "pirate" (and/or "enforcer") use, the goal here was to try and consider a parallel design derived from Matthew's DW design which could be marketed as a "mercenary" cruiser.

Which is not to say that BRs would not still serve as mercenaries, nor that the proposed CW (or CWX) would never be used as pirate (or enforcer) ships. But rather to try and expand upon the concept (or conceit) that the DW hullform is as distinct from the "classic" Orion hull type as it is due to its being marketed more as a mercenary ship than as a pirate raider; and that the HDW (and HWX) may not be the only Orion ship(s) which could follow this alternate evolutionary design path.

Plus, I'd hope that there might be room to make a would-be CW tactically distinct from a BR, akin to how the KDR operates quite differently than the SparrowHawk-A, despite both being Romulan "war cruisers". (Well, the SPA is a war cruiser in some ways yet not in others, but still.)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 06, 2018 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

No offense, but there is a "fatal flaw" in your thinking.

The Orion cartels are not going to build ships solely for the "mercenary cruiser" market.

The Orion cartels build ships to produce profit, not to languish waiting for a mercenary contract to come up. They are not going to train crews and pay them to sit around waiting for a chance to generate income by being rented out for some mission.

The Cartels will, if the price is right, rent their existing ships, which are designed primarily for the piracy mission, so that the ships can be out generating income and paying for their operations.

The Cartels do operate "specialist ships" (my term), but the specialty is "Piracy," not "mercenary contract work."

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, March 11, 2018 - 01:52 pm: Edit

SPP:

So rather than think of the DW itself as having been designed for the merenary role, I should see it as a ship which was designed for piracy in mind, yet which merely happened to be assigned to the mercenary role more often than not?

In which case, perhaps I should attempt to re-state this proposal in those terms. As in, the design team involved may have drawn up these plans with the same purpose in mind, as a more direct "design competitor" to the Battle Raider - but that, were any such ships to actually exist, perhaps they may have found themselves deployed in a mercenary role in the same manner as the smaller DW.

I suppose there are only so many trips to the "design competitor" well one can take before the concept loses its viability - so if that would still not be enough to get this proposal off the ground, fair enough.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 12, 2018 - 01:42 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

I am not sure how the design would "happen to be assigned to the mercenary role more often than not."

There is too much we do not know (all of us).

How often did the "mercenary role" come up? If we work from available data in Federation & Empire, it does not seem to be that common. That is to say there are very few Orion ships available for the various empires to auction for the mission. And, honestly, I am not sure how often the players of Federation & Empire actually do hire Orion mercenaries (note, my experience in that capacity was in the late 80s, so I am unsure what the many more recent and Veteran players would have to say).

We can, I think, be reasonably certain that no Cartel kept a squadron or two (or even a single ship) just floating around waiting to be hired on a mercenary contract. We can also be reasonably sure that when such a contract was let, it was filled by available ships, and thus those that were operating somewhere nearby. The most likely mercenary contracts are to hire the local Orions to go raid the opposing empire's merchant traffic. The Orions still do what they do, just only do it to the opposing empire's merchant traffic, tying down their ships defending their merchant traffic,and freeing up more of our ships to attack them since we do not need as many go escort our own merchant traffic. The Orions get more profit, yes (since they still look ships they attack, but we are paying them to do so), but even though we are out credits to hire them, it may be cheaper in the long run. Except that a lot of Orions are "independents," and a deal with a Cartel may not keep the enemy from hiring independents to raid our merchant traffic, putting us all back to square one (except the Orions are making more profit).

If you think about it, you do not want to hire an Orion mercenary squadron for any length of time (money going out for no real return while they are not doing anything). But worse, the longer they are on your payroll and no being used, the more likely your security systems are going to be breached and data sold to your enemies (the Orion Mercenaries need your codes to communicate, and are learning how your supply system operates in that area). So generally you would want to hire mercenaries as close to the "need" as possible (for security reasons).

So when you put out a call for mercenaries, you have to have a specific need in mind, and want to have them on your payroll for a minimum period of time. Which means that you are going to be recruiting among the local Orions, and not getting ships that were (when you let the contract) operating on the other side of your empire (LDR, Tholians, and WYN being exceptions here) or deep inside an opposing empire.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, March 12, 2018 - 03:06 pm: Edit

I have never played with Orion mercenaries in an F&E game. I did once join a game that was to use them, but that game never started.

However, in F&E, Orion mercenary ships have a fairly powerful capability in that you place them on _any_ base of the hiring empire, thus providing you strength that your opponent could not account for.

For example, the Klingon attack on the Kzinti on turn two (or the Feds on turn seven) could _certainly_ use some Orion ships to make certain battles easier (and thereby reduce Coalition damage) or perhaps to enable an attack on an extra battle station that otherwise you might not assault.

The main sticking point is of course the cost; you shouldn't pay much for mercenaries, unless you calculate that you should save money overall, or if you can do things using them that you might not otherwise be able to do (for example, the Hydrans might hire some to help enable an Expedition).

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, March 12, 2018 - 04:08 pm: Edit

I would think contracts working with the national starfleet would be rare. Pirate ships do not integrate well into a fleet battle due to incompatible weapon tactics and their mercenary (no pun intended) nature. The Orion LR captain is not willing to sacrifice his ship to save the command cruiser when push comes to shove. Most Orions would probably be used in shipping raids as Petrick said, strikes on critical targets the main fleet cannot reach, or feints on targets to draw off reaction forces to give the main fleet the ability to hit a target with less opposition.

I think the bulk of mercenary contracts would be hiring out to smaller entities than the Empires of SFU. Some thoughts:

- Planetary government or really lucrative corporate operation who feel they are threatened and want a ship on station to guard them during wartime or an "active" period of peace.

- Escort a smuggled cargo through a neutral zone or other heavily patrolled space.

- Independent neutral zone planet wanting to bolster defenses.

- Local feud like two Federation planets fighting over resources, Romulan houses going at it over whatever, feudal feuds in the feline empires, and guild sabotage in the Hydran Kingdom. While the central government probably would stamp it out before it got too far some hired muscle could get you an advantage before anyone could step in. Pirates also give deniability in some cases.

- The local Orion cartel or other criminal (or not overtly criminal) enterprise needs to punish another operation and hires a ship to take care of it (blow up or loot a mining operation, intimidate a planet into giving something up, scaring a rival out of your turf, etc.)

- An Orion ship with its boarding party complement would be good at hitting a lightly defended or undefended world and abducting an individual or group for ransom or political advantage. Assassination would also be possible.

- Elimination of a rival. Two individual freighter captains are competing over a route. One pays an LR to specifically cripple or steal the other's ship to get prices back up.

Others are possible of course.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 12, 2018 - 05:03 pm: Edit

To the best of my knowledge, the only known "historical" long-term mercenary squadron was that hired by the Lyran Democratic Republic. That, however, does not mean it was the only one.

Other known mercenary operations were some in support of the WYN-Kzinti "War of Return" (particularly by the WYN at the outset of their emergence from the Cluster) and by the Vudar at the start of their independence movement. Both of these appear to have been of much, much shorter duration than the LDR example.

As to Jon Murdock's list.

- Planetary government or really lucrative corporate operation who feel they are threatened and want a ship on station to guard them during wartime or an "active" period of peace.

Probable, but you get into the issue of costs. If the planetary government has enough wealth to hire a ship, it probably generates enough wealth that the National government is going to provide defenses to protect that income to the treasury, rather than see it diverted to the pockets of Orion Entrepreneurs.

- Escort a smuggled cargo through a neutral zone or other heavily patrolled space.

Unlikely. You might hire someone to do the smuggling, but hiring a escort simply increases the risk that the smuggling operation will be discovered.

- Independent neutral zone planet wanting to bolster defenses.

See response to the first issue. If the planet has that much disposable income and is not part of an empire, that situation will not last long.

- Local feud like two Federation planets fighting over resources, Romulan houses going at it over whatever, feudal feuds in the feline empires, and guild sabotage in the Hydran Kingdom. While the central government probably would stamp it out before it got too far some hired muscle could get you an advantage before anyone could step in. Pirates also give deniability in some cases.

In such cases, the reason to hire the mercenary is to avoid open involvement, i.e., acquire plausible deniability.

- The local Orion cartel or other criminal (or not overtly criminal) enterprise needs to punish another operation and hires a ship to take care of it (blow up or loot a mining operation, intimidate a planet into giving something up, scaring a rival out of your turf, etc.)

A Cartel Lord will either direct his own ships to do this, or will make a deal with an independent or three, or both. This is basically normal business for the Orions when dealing with each other, but the Orions are primarily interested in profit, and do not wage war between cartels as often as say the various Mexican drug cartels do.

- An Orion ship with its boarding party complement would be good at hitting a lightly defended or undefended world and abducting an individual or group for ransom or political advantage. Assassination would also be possible.

While possible (we have a fiction story or two of Cartel Lords using ships for this purpose) it is more likely to use a merchant ship rather than an Orion ship. Again, the matter is the cost to hire the Orion for the job, and that can be a rather significant expense for such a small operation for such a limited goal.

- Elimination of a rival. Two individual freighter captains are competing over a route. One pays an LR to specifically cripple or steal the other's ship to get prices back up.

At this scale (rival freighter captains) extremely unlikely. A single large freighter would bankrupt itself to even try to hire a light raider. You might up this to one merchant consortium versus another consortium.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, March 12, 2018 - 05:23 pm: Edit

SPP:

Thanks for the response. I should have qualified the planetary defense scenario. If a planet has the funds to get its own defenses that would usually be the preferred route. In a situation where the threat is expected to be short-term mercenaries are cheaper as you are not saddled with maintenance for something you needed for a few months.

Another reason to turn to mercenaries would be if the price or availability of defenses were to increase. For example after the Klingons invaded the Federation the demand for fighters, bombers, defsats, ground bases, armed auxiliaries, and the like were probably insane as every planet who thought they were reasonably safe suddenly wants to be able to discourage a lone E4 or F5 from being able to raid their planet. Some planets might hire a raider to fill in the gap.

For the smuggling example I was thinking a large smuggling operation like the one created for the Red Fur mini-campaign where you need warships to guard something vital though most would be smaller than that big convoy. For small time smuggling I would just hire a Salvage Cruiser or a Slaver or (if the cargo is high value but very small) an LR or CR so the whole group will be stealthy.

And yeah, the rival freighter captain scenario is unlikely unless it delivered a very lucrative cargo into the pirate's hands. Hmmmm....might be a fiction story there:

"I was promised an undefended ship full of refined dilithium in exchange for taking out your rival and instead I find a cargo of Gorn bobbleheads....we need to renegotiate the terms of our agreement."

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 12, 2018 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Jon Murdock:

Mercenary contracts would generally include who is responsible for things like the fuel the ship will use, the food the crew will eat, and, yes, who will maintain the ship. You are hiring this ship expecting that if the situation requires, it will get shot at. The captain of that ship is not going to agree to defend your planet unless any damage he incurs as a result is made good. Otherwise his contract to defend your little planet could be his last, i.e., he will have no way to make the damage good himself.

That ultimately is why many of the "defense ships" where a planet does not have a lot of wealth are variations of freighter hulls (armed freighters originally, but then "skids" were invented and an old freighter with a "stack of skids" becomes viable). Freighters are much easier to repair, or to scrap, than even a light raider, have much smaller overhead (since the crew can essentially be "national guardsmen" of the planet's defense forces beamed up at need.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 12:10 am: Edit

This is all very interesting information about the Orions.
I am still working on an Orion mini campaign (and some small scenarios) similar to the Fleet Captains, Frigate Captains, and Survey Captains Campaigns, with the scenarios about the kind of things Orions do.

All good

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 03:26 am: Edit

I don't see Orion mercenaries as being hired for extended static (guard) operations. They'd take your money until it got tough and then bugger off.

I see their operations as more like

go attack this convoy and we'll pay you XXX per cargo box destroyed. We think it has a POL as an escort. Standard orion pirate scenario.

Cripple this ship and you get YYY when we confirm it. Standard duel

Bring "Wanted Willie" to us and you get ZZZ. Mercenary raid.

Destroy the electronic warning station at AAA at 0800, 14 March and we'll give you BBB. Note that this MAY be a subtle feint to get the other side to move it's ships around, either before the operation (if the operation had been compromised) or after (so an operation somewhere else can go). Actually, i can see this as a very subtle spy game with some story possibilities.

All of these are easily defined in terms of results and payment. And easy for the hiring empire to confirm.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 11:43 am: Edit

Michael Grafton:

LDR kept an Orion Mercenary Squadron (CR and 2xLR) from Y154 to Y157. You might consider that a unique circumstance, but if the pay is good and risk not too great an Orion might find such a sinecure a useful retirement setting.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Was that squadron ever seriously challenged? I'm away from my books in Afghanistan again so I can't check.

(I SWEAR, I'm going to leave this place before 2019. I've been in Afghanistan (etc) since 2004 off and on.

Should have dragged the wife and kids to Romania until retirement.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 01:57 pm: Edit

It was challenged when a neighboring cartel masqueraded as the LDR Orion squadron and attacked the Klingons prompting a series of Klingon attacks into the LDR including an attack on the Orion squadron "at anchor".

If I remember correctly the pre-Smarba Romulans also hired some Orion ships for extended duty to give them some tactical warp ships.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Michael Grafton:

"Seriously challenged" is irrelevant.

It is not that much different from "hired security" anywhere. When push comes to shove, is the security guard going to keep fighting or decide that maybe he should have taken up a different line of work.

The general rules on an Orion Mercenary unit already cover the details. They are paid to fight, but not necessarily to die. So (S8.144) pretty much covers it, that is they disengage if crippled and do not fight to their own destruction protecting what they are guarding (Cartel property being an obvious exception).

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 02:19 pm: Edit

SPP: Yeah, the contract would cover the maintenance and damage but if it is a short-term situation it is more cost-effective to hire mercenaries than be permanently saddled with defense forces they have to pay maintenance for in perpetuity.

If the threat to the planet is likely to be ongoing or the planet is now wealthy enough that it needs more defenses to discourage an attack it is more cost-effective to buy and train their own.

I would guess that nine times out of ten at least if you hire an Orion to guard the planet you anticipate that the presence of the Orion will discourage the attack and there will be no battle. Now, if you are a Federation world during the Klingon attack and you hire an Orion LR or DW to discourage an E4 or F5 from showing up and looting your world it might work. The ideal when hiring mercenaries for garrison work is their presence means they never have to fight.

Of course if an 8 ship Klingon fleet shows up the Orion will just bug out and an honest Orion would put the "bug out" conditions in the original contract.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 03:02 pm: Edit

Jon Murdock:

The disadvantage in hiring a mercenary on a short term contract is if the contract is not long term, he may either provide the exact and precise data on what your defenses are to someone else (perhaps for a fee), or when his contract is up, since he knows your precise defense set up, loot you himself right away, or return in a week or two with friends (if he thought he could not handle your defenses himself even with the advantage of "surprise"). Which is generally why you do not hire an Orion for the job (especially if is short term), because you have to consider the long term that he now knows all of your defense plans (he has to in order fight for you effectively).

When you want an Orion to protect your convoy, you do not hire an Orion, you bribe the cartel lord who simply puts the word out.

Again, you are in the long run better off with defenders who are defending their own property (colony world) and thus "have something to fight for" rather than just "filthy lucre." The problem is that it is always easier for your political leadership to pay lip service to defense while diverting funds and effort to the "feel good" things that will get them reelected.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 03:53 pm: Edit

SPP:

I definitely agree that you are virtually always better off with a native armed force defending themselves. Rome fell apart when the army in essence became mercenaries to the highest bidder (and calling the person who paid the most Emperor). That song repeats throughout history.

Has it been established if the SFU has non-Orion space-based mercenaries....presumably involving armed auxiliaries? Could a planet facing a short-term risk hire a large armed freighter to defend itself and avoid the risk of dealing with the Orions? I doubt there would be enough of a market to have a specialized ship class built or even ships dedicated to the role but could I call corporation X who has some armed freighters and lease one for a few months to a year on defense duty?

Still not suggesting this would be the norm but suppose pretty new and small Colony Planet Murdockistan suddenly finds a rich dilithium deposit in the mountains that was missed in the initial survey. The planet previously was not worth raiding and contented itself with a single ground based phaser 2 on the only occupied hexside.

The governor Jon evaluates the situation. He could sell the rights to a corporation and make a lot of money but he decides to instead to develop the resources and retain local control (he is a rare honest politician looking to the long term future of the colony). He creates a local corporation owned by the colony itself and starts ordering equipment to mine the deposit.

He knows it is going to quickly get out that there is "gold in them hills" and quickly puts out feelers to immediately hire some armed ships to defend the mining operation while, in the long term, planning to order some bombers and fighters, train a militia, put up DEFSATs, and get some combat skiffs. Once the permanent defenses are in place the mercenary contracts terminate and life goes on.

Yeah, I realize it is a fringe case.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 04:12 pm: Edit

Jon Murdock:

Gets you back into questions of "how much wealth?"

Governor Jon might keep the find "under wraps" on the colony and send a delegation to the homeworld and see about getting a PDU assigned. Only then revealing the largess publicly and beginning mining operations. The homeworld being at that juncture more than willing to defend the future tax base and resources.

The Orions might not be interested in the "raw" dilithium (not enough to grab in a single raid to be worth the effort) but would wait for mining operations to start and a "critical stockpile" of Dilithium crystals to manifest (for shipment) which they would then find lucrative enough to run a raid. So you would plan on building defenses (i.e., getting the homeworld to provide it) before opening a mining operation.

There is the proverbial delicate balancing point to consider between the two extremes.

Also, it does not mean that your colony is safe from attack as long as you do not develop the dilithium mines (at least from Orions, a hostile government might be willing itself to develop the mines by taking the planet). Some Orion operations are for the purpose of "collecting labor forces," which is why a colony that is barely getting started as an agricultural collective still needs to have some defensive capability (even if only militia forces to make it harder for the Orions to simply round up the populace and leave).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 04:37 pm: Edit

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Quote:

Has it been established if the SFU has non-Orion space-based mercenaries....presumably involving armed auxiliaries?

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By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 - 07:19 pm: Edit

I would suspect the LDR Orion Squadron was led by a fallen Lyran who was more than happy to stick mud in the eye of Enemy's Blood Noble.

By Vincent Solfronk (Vsolfronk) on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 10:43 am: Edit

A mercenary unit that betrays their employers without good reason do not usually get hired again by another employer.

Also, mercenary units are historically more democratic since everyone in the mercenary unit has a contract themselves.