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X2 is suposed to FURTHER ADVANCES IN TECHNOLOGY and not radical departures in racial flavour.

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Assume that Module X2 is Second Generation X-Technology, new hulls and new gizmos. Could be improvements of the existing (probably still have phasers) but could be whole new things.

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By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 12:38 am: Edit

Could be whole new things.

That would be a reference to non heavy weapons on the vessels, such as the A.S.I.F. and Caps-to-SSReo.

Sure new weapon would be fine if the Races need new weapons but higher endurance and faster Plasma will just about do it.

On the Other Hand the Fussion beam probably needs some work.

We don't need to make everything new and improved, we need to make the systems fun and exciting and to me, changing the dynamic of the Plasma torp ( making it harder to "run out" but no harder to SSReo or Phaser down ) changes the Plasma Torp enough to actually be fun an exciting.
We don't need starfish plasma and we seriously don't need it if it harms playablity and ease of learning!!!

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 02:19 am: Edit

MJC,

I know 24-point photons aren't exactly new and different. Not every proposal is new and different, but what photon proposal really has been? The best anybody's come up with is prox-overloads and better fastloads, whereas people have had nifty plasma torp ideas.

As you have said, not everything in X2 has to be seriously changed. I suppose my point really is, "when I have a choice between something effective or creative, I'll choose creative."

With plasmas, I'll gravitate toward plasma cannon, X and Z-torps, veiled plasmas, plasmas in canisters and even photon-plasma over a super-sabot or increase in plasma endurance. But that's just me. Your milage may vary.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 07:19 am: Edit

Mike, SVC said something similar in P6. He wanted X2 to be something more than just beefed up X1.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 07:25 am: Edit

I don't understand this concern over the X2 vs. GW match-up. An X1 cruiser have little difficulty defeating a similar GW hull, the X2 should be really overwhelming. (Note that this might not because they are superior in all areas (not all systems need to be improvement over X1), but just in some like the superplasma would be).
Logically X2/GW match-ups would be like X1/MY ones.
Unbalanced yes, but so long te BPv figures are right this is fine.
To me the definition of the word unbalanced was the old tourney Andro.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 07:25 am: Edit

I think we are going to have a lot more.
I think the ground has been broken possibly with the exception of the Kzinti and the Disruptor Cannon that all heavies will just be beefed up version of the themselves ( with added flexibility ) and that the CRAZY NEW tech shall fall into the other categories, movement, defensces, etc.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 07:57 am: Edit

Carl, the problem isn't that an X2-cruiser will beat a non-X cruiser - that's pretty much a given. The problem is that 400 BPV of X2 might not give a decent fight againt 400 BPV of non-X.

Racial differences make designing X2 so that a certain BPV level gives good fights against the same BPV of non-X rather difficult. A Fed X2 ship with four "cinematic photons" (hit on 1-6 at range 9-12 and do 1000 damage each) and "tactical high warp" (move 5 hexes an impulse while generating 15 ECM but blow up on taking a single damage point) would be hard to assign an accurate BPV to...

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 10:33 am: Edit

Here's a thought for a new plasma gimmick. When I think of plasma, I think "heat." So, that led me to thinking of what kind of ability I'd want in such a weapon. Then, it hit me. What if we made a sort of "napalm plasma" that stuck to a ship and burned for a couple of turns? Say, it does 30 points on the first turn, 20 on the second, and burns out with 10 on the last? That's sixty points total, spread over three turns. You could envelope it. You could sabot it, but loose a turn of damage by doing it. No shotguns. Then you really would get something different and very cool. Maybe we give the plasma cannon to the Gorn, and this sort of thing to the Roms? Thoughts?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 02:07 pm: Edit

That would be an interesting thing to combine with your plasma cannon, Mike. Turn it into a napalm caster.

Damage might be too high but the concept is good.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 03:46 pm: Edit

I think it will help to try to think from a fictional character in R&D's point of view. How would a particular race view a particular need?

By the end of the Andromadin war all the races pretty much know each others weapons and tactics. I suggest that a major portion of what drives the new technology will be to develope new weapons and tactics. Some thing the old enemies know little about.

This is the case for new weapons in my opinion beyond the case that they are more powerful as well.

There is also the case for being apropriate for the times. All out war attrition is not the goal. At least for a time most or all nations will opt for the ability to fend off agression while maintaining a firm stance. New weapons on new ships contribute well to this option.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Loren,

There is also intimidation value.

You don't want your potential foes to find out you have a new bag of tricks after they attack you.

You either want them to find out after you attack them.

If you're not in an attacking mood, you want them to be afraid to attack in your empire's direction for fear of it being more costly than it would be worth.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 04:51 pm: Edit

John, yup. That's what raids and skirmishes are for. Hunting a few pirates and letting one go can further those goals, as well.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Loren,

In my mind, "fun to play" trumps looking at things as if this were an actual empire doing actual R&D.

A creative option that makes for interesting play, even if it fails the logical R&D test, is the preferable way to do. We can come up with a reason for it later.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 05:24 pm: Edit

Unfortuneately John, there is a bit of histrorical R&D that needs to stay in the mix, as F&E will probably involve these ships at some point.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 05:42 pm: Edit

Cfant,

I didn't say we wouldn't bother with historical R&D but that I would want to put playing enjoyment first.

I'm not a big F&E player so I don't have a good sense of the F&E impact of a given tech advance.

My perspective tends to leave me with a focus toward SFB enjoyment with the idea that F&E will figure out a way to incorporate whatever results. Retcon will be spun where needed.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Well let's look at the X2 duel for a moment.

•Gorns will have all Ph-5s but only about 8Ph-5s.
•Gorns will have Sabotted plasma and some people would like super sabotted plasma.
•Gorns will have 48 or more warp engine boxes powering an MC1 ship.

Where does this leave the ROmulans.
•Slowly moving because the cloak will cost a lot of power.
•A mix of Ph-5s and Ph-1s on thier KR hulls and maybe 6Ph-5s on their WE hulls ( if any ).

Now I don't see how one can elicity full damage against a Gorn ship from the Romulan for the combination of a number of factors.
•The gorn has no need to get closer than R8.
•The gorn is moving bloody fast.

These two combine to stretch out the range the the plasma must travel and render the warhead weakened.
The Plasma Sabot was designed during the GW to strike GW ships that can run around at high speed...then the X1s travel faster than that and the X2s travel faster still.

I'ld say the Romulans need a faster sabot coupled with an extention of the Glory Zone more than anyone else but the Gorns will need it too.


As to Plasma Napalm, I don't like it:- far too damaging, bad for GW ships.
But what about a plasma napalm that effectively creates a heat zone ( or a radiation zone or both ) around the ship for say 10 impulses?
Could be fun and interesting without being a game breaker.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 09:45 pm: Edit

I agree that Mike's stated damage is too high, but as I said, I like the concept.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Proximity fuse activation/deactiveation in 4 impulses.
approximates to
Shot gun and eveloping activation during turn in 4 impulses.

24 point photons
approximates to
Longer Glory Zone Plus Speed 48 sabot.


I think staying with Heavies that are similar to eachother is a good idea.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Eagle) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 08:42 am: Edit

Andrew, the Bpv is just a rough guideline, at best. Note that it isn't perfect even in GW era only. (That F5W comes to my mind) Also when splitting the bpv over several ships you get strange result: It's OK to playtest a X2 vs a B10, but if you try test it vs. three Fed CAs you get strange results.
My point is that as long as we don't create systems similar to the Andros:P we won't have balance issues that will wreck the system.
And thats all I think we need worry about, so we shouldn't let balance be in the way for creative ideas.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 09:15 am: Edit

The plasma napalm is something I'd like to work on. There are ways to mitigate the damage; perhpas splashing it over two or three shields would work best. I'll play with the proposal and put up something after I've had a chance to think it through.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 10:05 am: Edit

Plasma Napalm

Rules: Operates as other plasma torpedoes, with the following exceptions:

• Range limited to 20
• Only R, M, S, G/L types may be armed as a napalm plasma.
• The arming cost on the final turn of arming is doubled.

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Mike, plasma napalm sounds like a "super PPD."

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 02:33 pm: Edit

Hey!

I already wrote a super-PPD!

When does it do its damage, Mike?

On impact? Every Xth impulse?

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 02:41 pm: Edit

On impact, and the one or two impulses thereafter. It is rather like a PPD in that it splashes, but the similarity ends right about there. For example, with this weapons:

• No lock on is needed for follow up damage.
• Range is short...very short, in fact, for 2X.
• It's still a seeking weapon, not a DF one.
• It's a modified plasma torpedo, like a shotgun or EPT...not a unique weapon.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 08:28 pm: Edit

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When does it do its damage, Mike?

On impact? Every Xth impulse?

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