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	Archive through November 15, 2018	25		11/15 04:32pm

Just another note, there is some flexibility in arming with the photon as WSIII depending on the Fed players style.If he prefers the long range attack, at least on the first turn, and if he used standards or Prox torps, it only costs 4 points of any power to hold. That saves 4 points, so until he actually has o rearm those he does have some disposable power. Again it will depend on what tactics he prefers.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, November 15, 2018 - 01:58 pm: Edit

You can retrograde at a higher speed if you don't actually charge ALL the photons.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 15, 2018 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Part of what makes the retorgrade work is that (with the exceptions of X-ships, Fighters, Fast Patrol ships/Interceptors, and fire control issues) photons come in one flavor: Range 30.

In large battles some number of disruptors are going to be mounted on ships with less than 30 hex range, plasmas (prior to bolts) can only be held until you can close the range to almost right on top of the retrograding ships, Stingers are too slow (without booster packs) and some of your ships are going to have fusions rather than hellbores (there are never enough PPDs due to limits) and too few ships can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Changes over time have impacted this in some cases. Sabots let the plasma ships open fire at longer ranges rather than right on top of the retrograding Feds. More size class 4 ships with at least range 22 disruptors have arrived. And a lot of ships with more power able to walk and chew gum have entered the ship lists.

With statements by SVC on how "long-range drone bombardment" works, while launching directly at the ships probably will not work, the concept of launching bombardment drones using high warp to "circle around" the retrograding ships before dropping out of warp and approaching from behind them becomes imaginable.

The numbers of "phaser-1s" has grown, making it possible to hold the range between 31-50 and concentrate all phaser-1s on one small Federation ship, breaking its shield and forcing the Federation player to end the retrograde one way or another. If the Federation is attempting to hold the photons until you come into Range 30, he does not have the power to fire phaser-1s back in similar numbers, and may be forced to dump them or attempt to reverse his direction of movement to bring the photons into range. (Phaser-2s hit half as often and ultimately requiring more power to accomplish the same end, which is what makes the proliferation of phaser-1s on Federation opponents inimical to the retrograde).

New empires have their own counters (the Vudar Ion Cannon has the same range, but is more accurate even if it does less damage per shot).

A handful of web caster equipped ships pretty much means (at Range 30) watching your retrograding formation be quickly broken up and your ships overwhelmed singly if you try the tactic. (Tholians are cheaters!)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, November 15, 2018 - 04:19 pm: Edit

For its BPV, the Tholian CPX may be the best retrograding ship in the game AND ALSO the best ship in the game for opposing an enemy's retrograde. PAX is awfully good, too. But the Tholians have very few of either, of course.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, November 15, 2018 - 04:32 pm: Edit

On the other hand, I think the ship that really owns the retrograde at the strategic level is the Fed DDX. Ship for ship (and I would say even BPV vs. BPV) those Tholian cruisers are better. But the Feds can field a large number (relatively speaking) of DDXs while a Tholian battle fleet with even two photon-armed X-Cruisers is probably pretty rare.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Thursday, November 15, 2018 - 08:53 pm: Edit

What self respecting Klingon would retrograde.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, November 16, 2018 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Gregory S. Flusche:

A Klingon who knows that the empire succeeds when they succeed and does not foolishly throw his ship away. If the situation calls for a retrograde, then a retrograde will be used. Sometimes it is better to back before a superior force to keep that force from penetrating faster and more deeply into the empire than it is to prove how fearless you are by allowing that superior force to destroy your ship and then rampage through the interior of the empire.

Klingons are warriors, not fools, and will even retreat from a lost battle rather than deprive the empire of their further combat service by being destroyed.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Friday, November 16, 2018 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Although I'm a rank amateur when it comes to proper tactics and strategies, even I know that the retrograde is of limited use.

How do you defend an objective from an enemy raid if you're retrograding?

How do you reach a target if you're backing away from its defenders?

Also, one key element for a retrograde to work is the enemy has to go after it. The only time that's likely is if the destruction of the retrograding force IS the objective.

It kind of makes me think of the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, when Mitchner launched the strike late in the day (at some pretty extreme ranges). The strike only did light to moderate damages and the confusion when the strike returned caused losses that (IMO) weren't justified by the damage done.

Likewise, Halsey's charge after the decoy carrier forces at Leyte was (again, in my opinion) much like a fools charge against retrograding forces.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Friday, November 16, 2018 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Well my above was myself being a smart$%%. The retrograde is a very useful tactic. Depending on why and when you use it.

I had a echelon of 2 Lancer destroyers and a Dragoon CA. Vs a number of Klingon D hulls. Knowing my opponent would use large numbers of scatterpacks and drone launches. I did indeed retrograde firing my fusions and phasers at long range. Followed by my Helbores. Staying out of overload range and running away from his packs of drones. I believe he had bought a D6D as one of his ships and keeping away from all those drones was very key to me winning. It was of course the Klingon player who wanted a open map to keep out of stinger death range.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, November 16, 2018 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Jeff,

I agree that in a lot of cases a retrograde fight wouldn't take place at all, as the Klingons (just for the sake of example) have nothing to gain by pursuing a force that outguns them at long range and isn't actually defending anything of value.

But that doesn't mean such a situation could never happen. Let's consider the following hypothetical case.

The Klingons have destroyed the Federation's bases and logistics infrastructure in certain area, and the Feds have set up a mobile base to allow them to continue operations there. The Klingons send a force to destroy it before the Feds can upgrade it to a BATS (or even an X-BATS). The only Fed warships in the immediate area are not enough to stop the Klingons and reinforcements have been called. But the Klingons will reach the mobile base before the Fed reinforcements do. The on-site Fed ships sortie to engage the Klingons, hoping to stall them long enough for those reinforcements to arrive. But if the Feds engage the Klingons closely, they will be crushed. If they don't engage at all the Klingons will destroy the mobile base. So the Feds interpose themselves between the Klingons and the base and start retrograding back towards it, counting on the superior long-range capabilities of their photon torps. They hope in this way to delay the Klingons enough to allow the much heavier reinforcements to arrive and see them off. The Klingons can't go to "strategic warp" speeds because they are within weapon range of the Feds. They drive towards the base as best they can, hoping to arrive in time to kill it before those heavy Fed reinforcements show up.

Granted, a number of things have to happen for this situation to occur. But I don't think it's out of the question, and could result in a a "classic" retrograde fight.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, November 16, 2018 - 06:20 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor has the right of it in terms of situation.

Every tactic, even a foolish or nominally suicidal one, has its time and place.

Not a retrograde, but remember the story I tell of the foolish brand new lieutenant who challenged the experienced sergeant to a tactical contest. You can go down a long list of reasons why the Lieutenant should have been crushed (the challenge was both foolish and suicidal, at least in a career sense, on its face). The sergeant lost badly to the Lieutenant despite the literally overwhelming advantages that accrued to him in the tactical situation, which included a counterattack by the Lieutenant's force against the overwhelming power of the attack. One of those things that is almost impossible to simulate in a board game because both players can usually see every move the other makes, but in "real life" there is very much hidden that hinders a commander's options.

In the case Alan Trevor offered, could the Klingons have split their force, leaving some ships to contend with the retrograding Federation force, while others dropped back, and went to high warp to circle around them? But then he cannot know for certain that there are not other Federation forces deployed just for such an eventuality (remember, at a high warp even a shuttle's phaser-3 can kill a B10).

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 10:54 am: Edit

The solution to the Kaufman retrograde for Klingons at the fleet level is to attack it at ranges 31-50 with phaser fire. Your phaser-2s outnumber their phaser-1s and you concentrate fire on any ship not putting out enough EW. The Federation player will have a hard time disengaging damaged ships that have to change direction and then work their way up to speed.

I like the Fed Commander solution of reverse movement costing double power and hope it makes it into the mythical Resurrection Edition of SFB.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 11:04 am: Edit

In my experience, the Kaufman retrograde does not work. Klingons can't just extend the range to 51+ and not exchange fire. The Klingons don't announce disengagement by distance, leaving the onus on the Federation to do so. If they do, unless you have a special scenario, the Federation loses on account of the victory point gain for the Klingons.

Strategically, the Federation loses ground until the Klingons reach a Federation hard point - but in that case the Fed has given up the space - and maybe the whole reason for the patrol (but maybe slower tactical speeds would slow the advance of a Klingon force until reinforcements arrived.)

From a metagaming perspective, the K-R also doeson't work. Unless your opponent specifically agreed to try the scenario, they're going to be irritated and simply not engage it. Then you're not actually playing SFB, which defeats the point.

All in all, in my opinion, the K-R is one of those things that sounds like a good idea, but in reality it isn't.

@Jon: Not so sure the Klingons have more phasers than the Feds. The D7 has 7 phaser 2's, but they are hard to bring to bear. The F5 has 5. The CA has 6 phaser-1 and the DD has 6 phaser-1 (FF has 3, but the E4 has 4).

Overall, I think the total number of phasers is likely only *slightly* favoring the Klingon. We're only talking about a few damage points at these ranges, and the Feds are returning in kind. Honestly, I think *luck* will make the difference at those ranges.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 11:44 am: Edit

The D7 has 9 p-2s to the Fed CA having 6 p-1s. The Klingons could pretty easily bring all to bear at long ranges though concentrating on a single shield would be difficult. The Klingons can easily get 7 of them in arc and unless the Feds can get on the hex spine they are down to 4 in one impulse. In frigates the Klingon F5 has 5 p-2s to the Fed FF's 3 p-1s. The Klingons can probably get 4 in arc in a single impulse to the Fed's 2.

I agree it would come down to luck but I think the Klingons have the advantage.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 11:46 am: Edit

Jon Murdock,

But consider my hypothetical example from my 5:33 PM post on 16 November. If the Klingons fall back to range 31-50, they are, in all likelihood, giving up any chance of reaching the mobile base before the heavy Fed reinforcements do, which means the Feds win since the whole point was to save the base. The only chance the Klingons have of killing the base is to press the retrograding Feds hard.

I grant that whole example was contrived to create a situation in which a "retrograde" might occur, and work. I admit that all the necessary requirements would come together only rarely. That's why I regard the retrograde as a special tactic for an unusual situation, though one that might occur from time to time.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 12:15 pm: Edit

Alan,

In that situation if I were the Klingon commander I would not charge disruptors, go to high speed, go erratic with the smaller ships and use EW on the larger ones, put up ECM drones if fast drones are in play, and go around them. The Feds cannot retrograde fast enough while arming photons to stay between the base and the Klingons unless the base is very close in which case the Feds will be behind the base pretty quickly in any case.

I can keep them in the long range photon bracket while going around with relative ease and their prox photons will have a really low hit rate.

Get ahead enough on the side and start overtaking them and the Feds have the option to continue flying backwards and have their photons out of arc or switch to going forward and engage conventionally.

Your scenario works but only if the time table is VERY tight but even then it is probably better for the Klingons to go to high speed and push through (likely losing unless they have numbers) rather then go to medium speeds and trade volleys with the Fed defenders.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 01:05 pm: Edit

K-R still doesn't work.

D7 realistically only has 7 ph-2. You can't "easily" get all 9 to to bear given the expansive arcs, especially when you are trying to chase - you'll be turning all over the place to get 9.

But the number of ph-2 isn't your biggest problem.

In the 31-50 bracket the ph-2 does 1 damage on a "1". The ph-1 does 1 damage on a "1" or "2" out to the maximum range of the phaser-2. (Ph-2 max range is 50, ph-1 max range is 75 with 51 being in that max range bracket).

Let's assume a large fleet (as otherwise the amount of phaser damage done in either case is going to bounce off of reinforcement). Let's say we've got a DN(C8) on each side with 10 CA(D7) on each side.

The Feds now have 70 ph-1 and the Klingons have (realistically) 2 ph-1 and 79 ph-2.

The Federation average damage from 31-50 is roughly 0.33*70 = 23 damage (rounding). The Klingon average damage is roughly 0.33*2 + 0.167*79. = 14 (rounding).

Despite having an 11 phaser advantage, the Klingons are losing by 9 damage per turn.

If the Klingons manage to bring to bear all 9 ph-2 on the D7's (and the one waist ph-2 on the C8), then the damage goes up to a whopping 0.33*2 + 0.167*100. = 17 (rounding).

The Klingons are *still* losing by 6 damage per turn - AND - the Klingons are spending 9 power vice 6 from the Fed CAs. Given the +1 power on the D7, that's 2 less reinforcement.

The Klingons are going to lose the long range phaser exchange in the 31-50 bracket. Phaser-1s are just too good.

If the D7s have the K refit, then the damage goes to about parity, and then maybe luck can help them.

But, again, no point in doing that. Just go out to range 76 where the Feds can't hurt you at all. At that point, the Feds again have the onus to declare disengagement by distance (and lose), give ground till they get to the hard point, or turn to engage the Klingons.

Any way you cut it, the K-R just isn't working in real play.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 01:07 pm: Edit

John,

Well, I have acknowledged that it works only under limited circumstances, and agree with your general approach. I do note, however, that if fast drones are available, so are Fed NCLs, which (admittedly, not while using ECCM) can use proximity-fused photon torpedoes while retrograding at 30. A DD+ that only arms up three photons can retrograde at 27.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Yeah, I probably should have left out the ECM drone bit as irrelevant.

By Eddie Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 01:45 pm: Edit

John, first concerning P1 vs P2 at 31-50 the P1 has twice the hit rate. 1/3 to 1/6. Second using the end run.The Fed is using the interior line, if you plan on maintaining the 30+ range he can sideslip toward you as you swing around 1 side or the other and force you even further out. Photons are the key, You assume he will fire photons, if defending a base or fixed objective, I use P1 only. The Feds weakness is power, if he is holding only and not firing them he has the power to string out the end run. The end run only works if the Fed moves toward the objective as you move around, if he moves in your direction he can maintain his position between you and the objective much longer. Yes eventually you can catch Fed, but in that case at a time of his choosing and he will still have the Photons. The first question is the objective. If you are attacking with an equal force and the objective is some sort of military base, you will lose. Even an MLB with its restrictions can swing the balance with its limited EW, if it has a power module then it is even worse. The odds change somewhat if you outnumber the defender, and depending on if there will be reinforcements. If I am the KLingon, I want to start at range 30, keep as many disruptors on him as possible, bait the photons, because then he has power problems, he has to rearm, can he get overloads back before you over run him, or will the end run work while he is short on power.

By Marc Michalik (Kavik_Kang) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 05:36 pm: Edit

There is a lot more too the Kaufman Retrograde than just 5 Fed CA's moving backwards. That original scenario revealed a core concept of SFB tactics and how things work at many levels. The retrograde can be relevant in a wide variety of situations, even briefly. If you launch a drone at a target, the effectiveness of that drone is affected by the concept of the retrograde depending on whether the target is approaching or receding, just as an example. Plasma torpedoes, or course, are greatly affected by this. Correct map size is determined by the retrograde. The general concept of the retrograde is at the core of SFB tactics and how the combat environment functions in many ways.

There is the original scenario of the Federation using the Kaufman Retrograde as a defensive maneuver... and then there is the body of core basic tactical knowledge that realization led too. They are separate topics of discussion.

By Ken Krajniak (Ca1701) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 08:40 pm: Edit

We decided that the starting position for the Klingons was incorrect, thus started their fleet within 5 hexes of 0723.

It is a fixed map, the Kaufman Retrograde was not used. I did take several photos (we used Miniatures) and hope to post them somewhere for others to see.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, November 20, 2018 - 05:45 am: Edit

Go to my story:

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/12031/5007.html?1060135354

Monday, August 04, 2003