Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through April 24, 2003	25		04/24 02:00pm
	Archive through July 15, 2003	25		07/15 06:44pm
	Archive through September 11, 2003	25		09/11 07:59pm
	Archive through April 27, 2004	25		04/27 11:15pm

Fighters are combat units. No go.

Although it ocurrs to me that a WS for the escort units higher than the convoy might be appropriate.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Goeff I think the next sfbol game you play should be a convoy raid, as the raidee.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 05:52 pm: Edit

As a Plasma race vs a Plasma Opponent,

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Why is that Les? Do you believe the scenario to be unwinnable by the defender? And if so, why?
(It's not that I don't agree, but we need to identify what is wrong with the scenario before we come up with solutions)

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 06:40 pm: Edit

yes, unwinnable, why - - play it once.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 12:16 pm: Edit

You've played it twice, I'm asking for your specefic input.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 12:57 pm: Edit

we've given our input, there is no more input to give. Play it for yourself.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 02:20 pm: Edit

I would like to hear considerably more input than 'add 6 fighters' and 'allow 1 qship/2 armed freighters max'.

You have not answered my questions as to what specefically makes the scenario unbalanced ie: maps, bpv, WS, victory conditions, etc.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 02:39 pm: Edit

While I haven't played the scenario, based on their comments (and experience with similar scenarios), I would guess that the problem is partly/primarily due to the fact that both sides were flying plasma races.

One of the things that plasma does well is attacks fixed/slow targets--a convoy. One of the things plasma does poorly is defend fixed/slow targets, especially if the "target" contains a significant portion of the firepower (inability to maneuver to prevent the opponent from running or even sometimes using a WW).

Thus the scenario they set up was one that gave the attacker a very large weapon mis-match advantage. The fact that freighters don't have cloaks also probably made the situation worse since any cloak equipped Rom ships were paying for the cloak, but were likely to get limited use out of it.

After reading about how it played out, I'm wondering if the VC need to be improved. The defender go half the convoy off the map as well as the escort(s?). IMHO, that should work out to a marginal convoy player victory (I could also see scoring it a draw). I'd argue that is a good result for the convoy player--their goal is to survive and get the freighters to their destination. I wouldn't expect to see a raider victory until 2/3 of the convoy was killed (or half and all the escorts).

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 12:32 pm: Edit

I guess the question then is if plasma armed ships are not involved, is the scenario balanced? Or must we tweak it further?

Bumping up the convoy WS to 1 and the escort WS to 2 would be a good start imo. Possibly adding a turn limitation to represent reinforcements arriving is another, but that will encourage 'circling the wagons' too.

I would like to get this scenario balanced, but I know it is an oddball.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 01:33 pm: Edit

I don't think it being plasma is truly the problem. With plasma the 1st 1 to 2 turns is just getting to weapons range, with non plasma they can come in firing thos 2 tursn on the freighters, and the defender can be firing back.

The convoy needs some up front firepower that fades away and that is why I suggest the 6 Ftrs. Since there is no way to rearm them that fits the slot nicely.

The only problem then is what pool the ftr bpv comes from. I'd say do half and half or pay econominc for em. They can only be used for the convoy battle.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 10:34 pm: Edit

Les, while with a DF race, both sides can fire during the approach turn, neither side is likely to do so since they're unlikely to score signficant damage beyond OL range (whether or not they use OL) so early fire is more of a waste of energy than anything useful. Disruptor armed escorts might fire because their slow speed gives them extra power and they can't "save it up" but this is more likely to be a nuisance than anything serious.

Depending on the type of plasma, the attacker can fire at range 10 at worst and can expect range 15 or even 20 to work fine for launching. At these ranges, the plasma armed defender has to tip their hand too soon. Not to mention that convoys are almost the perfect shotgun target.

Fighters would be extremely ahistorical with a convoy (unless it had an aux CV). Remeber that any drone armed ship can rearm drone armed fighters (it can't do so efficiently, but it can do the re-arming), so drone armed fighters are not "one shot" Fighters without a carrier are also vulnerable to being picked off at moderate range.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Now if there was a time limit, then things have to get dirty and fast otherwise the raider doesn't score well against a circled convoy. And if he dances around then the convoy can afford to move and end the raid that way.

If there was a time limit, and if the disengage edge was closer, perhaps 2 maps instead of 3. All theoretically of course.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 07:22 pm: Edit

Geoff, the last one we played the KR was dead top of turn 3 essentially. It's not a time problem. It's a firepower problem.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 05:03 pm: Edit

But if we increase the escort's firepower then that in addition to the convoy's would give the raider no chance if the convoy just gathered the wagons and dug in, firing everything they had.

That's my fear anyways. Perhaps a rule stipulating that the cargo units must keep moving if the escort gets bigger?

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 11:48 pm: Edit

.. and hence my suggestion of Ftrs.

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 11:48 pm: Edit

Either that or you need a random reinforcement arrival.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Well that was the time limit.

Perhaps convoy scenarios are just one of those type of actions that either is in the attackers favour or just not attempted otherwise. Ie:historically common, but not a good choice for a balanced play scenario.