In the "Carnivon Empire" timeline listed in SFB Module C6, the Carnivons remain "on the map" as an interstellar power; as noted in the F&E Lost Empires Carnivon preview in Captain's Log #51, these Carnivons may trade with the WYN Cluster as its other neighbours do. (This is of course different over in the "Cluster Carnivon" timeline also listed in Module C6, where the surviving Carnivons are themselves the ones who occupy the WYN Cluster.)

Given that the WYNs in the standard timeline gain access to a number of Klingon, Kzinti, Lyran, and other hulls through various sources - to include salvage left behind after numerous failed invasions of the WYN Cluster itself - it would stand to reason that one or more Carnivon hulls might find themselves in the hands of the WYNs for one reason or another. So, I was wondering what, if any, "factory unauthorized" adjustments the WYNs might make to such hulls.

Technologically-speaking, it should be noted that according to the data in C6, the WYNs (and their Orion "guests") may make use of captured disruptor cannons, but that heel nippers and death bolts are restricted Carnivon technologies. So regardless of what the WYNs might do with any DC mounts, the HN and DB mounts would need to be replaced with something the locals can make use of.


Also, in any of the three "Paravian timelines" noted in Module C6 - which may, or may not, be said to exist in tandem with the "Carnivon Empire" timeline above - it may not be outside of the realm of possibility for the WYNs to gain access to one or more Paravian hulls, perhaps via one or more intermediaries.

In this case, C6 notes that the WYNs (and their Orion "guests") may use captured quantum wave torpedo mounts, should they wish to do so. That said, with no tertiary weapon mounts (akin to death bolt or heel nipper mounts on Carnivon warships) to work with, the WYNs might have fewer options to consider, barring any "factory unauthorized" modifications which might perhaps affect the captured hull(s) in other ways - say, by preventing them from landing on planets.


So, while the onus in this proposal is on the "WYN-Carnivon" side of things, are there any thoughts on what, if any, quirks one might see in the potential use of "lost empire" hulls commandeered for service in the WYN Navy?

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Saturday, May 25, 2019 - 12:09 am: Edit

Interesting idea, Gary.

While I'm not an expert (I'm more "LUZ" than "WYN"), there is an apparent pattern that I've seen regarding the "WYN Factory Unauthorized" upgrades.

We do see that their modified freighters have "Optional Weapon Boxes" but the converted warships don't; they use the same heavy weapons that they do with their original owners, Disruptors.

On the other hand, we do see that, in module C1, the SSD for the "Standard Configuration" of the Auxiliary Cruiser has Disruptors as its heavy weapons. This begs the question of how common were any heavy weapons OTHER than Disruptors for the WYN.

In my opinion, a case could be made either way. WYN-Carnivon hulls MIGHT use Disruptor Cannons, or they may have had them replaced with WYN standard Disruptors.

As far as the "Death Bolts" go, I would worry that the precedent established by one of the Lyran conversions MIGHT preclude their use. I can't remember if it's the WYN-Lyran DD or the WYN Pocket Battleship, but one of those ships has a Drone Rack as well as the ESG.

While I would be more than happy to allow a WYN-Carnivon ship to use Death Bolts, I'm afraid something outside of the formal SFB rules might shoot the idea down.

If the WYN were to use both Drones and Death Bolts, they'd need to have parallel production lines; something that could be argued as being too much of an expense for the small nation.

(HOWEVER, I'm NOT someone in a position to make such a call...)

The Heel Nipper, on the other hand, is not something I really see the WYN using. While I've not had any success with Heel Nipper tactics, I have found that it works best as something more to impact an enemy's maneuvers in prolonged fights than it is useful as a direct damage weapon.

(Most likely, this is yet another failing with my tactics... )

In the case it isn't, please remember that the "Prolonged Fight" is anathema to the WYN, for whom getting the Ouch in while the enemy is trying to recover from the effects of the WYN Radiation Zone is how they survive.

For that reason, I honestly think the WYN would probably replace Heel Nippers with more Disruptor Cannons (or standard Disruptors).

As far as WYN-Paravians go, I think it's a cool idea, but given that there aren't any (known) non-conjectural WYN-Gorn, WYN-Romulan, WYN-Federation, or WYN-ISC ships, I'd kinda doubt there'd ever be any non-conjectural WYN-Paravians...

... But for grins and giggles, I can just picture a "WYX" (Pronounced "Wicks") Starcluster in the triple point between Gorn and Romulan spaces where the border meets up with either the Federation or the ISC, that JUST happens to have an identical radiation shell around it as is around the WYN starcluster...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, May 26, 2019 - 01:16 pm: Edit

I don't have my copy of Captain's Log #37 to hand, but it does have a set of SSDs for WYN conversions of hulls sourced from more distant empires. At the very least, I seem to recall that the WYNs salvaged an ISC hull in the wake of the Concordium's failed incursion into the Cluster during the Pacification; and that the WYN-Seltorian ships were also historical, in that they had been captured by the Klingons after the Torch had been extinguished and then sold on to the WYNs. I don't remember about the others, though.

To clarify, under (E24.14) and (FD20.14) in Module C6, both heel nippers and death bolts are off-limits for other empires outside of the simulators. (Although the reasoning is different for each weapon; the heel nipper could not be made to work by non-Carnivons, while death bolts were seen as too much of a hassle to use in comparison to drones.)

Actually, given that most Paravian ships can land on planets, I wonder if the WYNs might have kept any "factory unauthorized" changes to a minimum, so as to use such a hull for special missions which could take advantage of this capacity. Or if the difficulty in keeping its engines running so far from home might instead oblige the WYNs to proceed with the aforementioned type of conversion that might prevent it from landing on planets, yet make it the kind of short-ranged weapons platform that other empires' hulls tend to get turned into.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 10:41 am: Edit

Hmm ... Two things occur to me.

1) If the WYN were to use Carnivon hulls, I can't see the WYN using anything other than standard WYN tech. So, disruptor cannons replaced with disruptor bolts, death bolts replaced by drones, and heel nippers replaced with nothing or phasers. That said, they could still end up being some pretty fun designs.

This is doubly true if the Carnivons sold the hull. In that case, it would probably be sent weaponless and the WYN would then have to install their own weapons.

2) The main way I can see any Paravians show up is in the "Paravians replace Orions as the sector-wide pirates" scenario. In that case, the sky's the limit on what happens. That'd be fun, but really, really out there.

The only other way is because of a raid, and that would have to be one ridiculous raid to get from Paravian territory all the way over to WYN space. In that case, what the WYN do with the hull would be irrelevant to just telling that story. The story of that epic raid would be worth *way* more than the modified ship!

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 09:08 pm: Edit

The carnies were the first to enter the cluster and might well have defined he technology.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 10:23 pm: Edit

I don't know that you would need any new SSDs for Paravian pirates.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 12:51 am: Edit

Re: Paravian Pirates

Oh, yeah. The idea was that the hypothetical Paravian Pirate would use Orion designs. I was thinking that Paravian Pirates would use Paravian ships. Thus the disconnect. So that's a moot point.

Re: Carnivons

I was assuming that Carnivons show up to the WYN show later than the Usurper. In that case, the technology is set and any Carnivon ships would likely be changed to use it.

If the Carnivons get there first, then, yes, they would define the technology used by the WYN. But, they would also probably kill the Usurper when he shows up, so that whole part is gone. Maybe they mellow over time and start integrating newcomers rather than slaughtering them all. But, initially, I can't see them doing anything other than killing those who arrive after them. Maybe the Orions can talk fast enough when they show up ...