Yeah, this will probably be smacked down hard, but, hey, it's a fun idea! (To me, at least ...) This is intended for K2.

During the ISC War, the ISC set up several bases of operation in the various neutral zones. At least one, maybe two, of them was close the the WYN Cluster. The ISC quickly acknowledged that the WYN were not only not opponents, but had the potential to be cooperative, if not implicit allies. When this ISC group (or pair of groups) became stressed, they realized that they couldn't keep their attrition units resupplied fast enough. So, they contracted out to the WYN for help.

The ISC provided the base knowledge/supplies for Pl-F and Pl-D technology to the WYN. In return, the WYN built a modified Freedom Fighter for use by the ISC. This simply replaced the disruptor and drones with Pl-F (variant: the disruptor with a Pl-F and the drones with Pl-D) with LS/FP/RS arcs. (Whether the drone were replaced with Pl-F or Pl-D, they still had LS/RS arcs because of their position on the hull.)

(The WYN's use of Pl-F and Pl-D didn't change. What they could produce was entirely used up by the ISC's needs. Any minor amount of excess were simply used to maintain their existing examples of plasma-based fighters and other attrition units.)

Because of this contract, this group (or pair) of ISC was able to have a firmer foothold and able to sustain longer.

Bonus idea! If the above idea actually works, it could be expanded as follows:
When the Andromedans came rolling in, the surrounding powers were still bitter over the relative success of this group of ISC. As a result, they received no support or help when the Andromedans hit. Realizing they could not withstand a continued barrage, they packed up everything they could and fled to the WYN cluster, where they held out for the rest of the Andromedan war. It was this unexpected force of ISC within the Cluster that allowed the WYN to decisively defeat the Andromedans' efforts to invade the Cluster. When the war ended, the ISC force finally made their way back home.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, September 04, 2019 - 11:55 am: Edit

I believe the ISC historically made at least one attempt to occupy or at least establish a foothold the WYN cluster. If I am remembering that right it is unlikely that the WYN would coordinate with them later and supply them.

Then again maybe it was an "all is forgiven thing" after the fact. The WYN cluster can always use plasma torpedoes which are very good against radiation plagued ships with low power (and hence low speed) and may have needed any help they can get after the Usurper ran off with a substantial portion of the WYN fleet.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 04, 2019 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Several background issues.

First, the WYN Cluster has been a partner with the Orion Cluster Cartel for a sizeable chunk of its history. Cartels may not make a large use of weapons outside of their home territory, but 10% of their weapons can be any available. So the Cluster Cartel is, and has always been, a source for plasma technology for the WYN Star Cluster. See (R12.1B) and (G15.442). There can be little doubt that plasma-F torpedoes and plasma-D torpedoes are in use and available to the WYN Star Cluster long, long before the Inter-Stellar Concordium showed up.

The second thing is that the Inter-Stellar Concordium has a noted dislike and disdain for pirates, and would be extremely unlikely during the Pacification to enter into an agreement with a WYN government that was openly allowing an Orion Cartel to operate a shipyard (while the Usurper took over the shipyard to prepare his "War of Return," in the aftermath of his departure the shipyard resumed production of Orion ships). From (R12.1K): "Aggressive Lyran and Klingon probes in the last months of Y186 caused great concern and resulted in the arrival of numerous mercenary Orion warships, the resumption of construction of true Orion ship designs, and the return of the Crimelord of the Cluster Cartel to the council in January Y187. His use of the Cluster as a base for expanded piracy attracted the attention of the ISC, which had only then decided that the aggression of the Usurper was the principle cause of the violence in the region. An ISC intrusion in April Y187 caused the return of many of the WYN-Orion ships that had been serving with the Usurper (and encouraged the Usurper to accept the Crown Prince’s offer of a duel)."

So the proposed background does not work with the existing background.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, September 04, 2019 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Ah, well. Forgot about the whole "hate those pirates" issue for the ISC. Was trying something a little out of the box, but obviously failed.

Please delete the topic when desired!

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 04, 2019 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Mike West:

Why?

You could do a little more research and note that during the Andromedan War a lot of cut off Inter-Stellar Concordium units formed what were known as "Cantonments" and made some local arrangements.

So you need an Inter-Stellar Concordium cantonment outside the WYN Star Cluster to start with [nothing OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD (emphasis, not shouting) says there was not one or could not be one]. But you are making the proposal and should be willing to do some of your own research rather than having me stop and do it for you.

A cut off cantonment with problems with spare parts might get you what you are proposing, but be aware that it opens a can of worms, i.e., technology sloshing at other cantonments, so be careful.

But "Politics makes strange bedfellows," and "common enemies" do happen. Remember the scene in "Independence Day" where the Israeli and Arab pilots are staring at each other, but know they must make common cause against the invaders. Such a thing can also apply to cut off Inter-Stellar Concordium cantonments that may have to make deals with Orions to get things they need if the local governments are not conducive to an arrangement.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, September 04, 2019 - 04:17 pm: Edit

You also face the problem of supplying plasma torpedoes. It is doubtful that the cut off group was producing them. You could probably cobble some launchers out of spare parts to give the WYN but then you are cutting your life expectancy. An infusion of plasma D ammo might work. Perhaps when they were cut off they also ended up with a large surplus originally meant for other deployments but that would not explain F torp PFs.

A more likely scenario is that the ISC had a shortage of PFs and traded something such as plasma D torps, general military equipment, or even a ship to be turned over for WYN conversion allowing for a neat overgunned WYN boat. In exchange the WYN produced the line of modified WYN boats armed with plasma torpedoes and possibly kept a few for their own use.

I like the ship idea. Giving up a light cruiser or a destroyer for two or three PF flotillas would make sense, especially with no crew replacements showing up. The low crew needs of PFs would work well. While the WYN got more firepower out of the deal the WYN always needed more hulls (which they have to buy or trade for again) rather than more attrition units they can build themselves.

The only problem I see with the idea is that the Orions had the shipyard back and a simpler solution would be to get the ship in exchange for destealthed Orion PFs armed with plasma torps so no engineering work would be needed for the modification. Maybe the pirates were unwilling to sell PFs at that point at least at that volume?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, September 04, 2019 - 06:04 pm: Edit

SPP,

I did remember the Cantonments, thus the "bonus" part of the idea. I just wasn't 100% sure that they were called "Cantonments" and, honestly, didn't remember which R-module would have told me. But a Cantonment is what I was referring to, and thought it was pretty obvious even though I didn't remember the exact word to use.

However, I did completely forget to consider the whole pirate thing. At the point this would likely be happening, the Orions were back in control, which would have made any such arrangement much more difficult. I just flat out forgot about the anti-pirate sentiments of the ISC. That was where I dropped the ball. I completely admit to that. And, if that invalidates everything, then, yes, there is no point to the discussion any longer.

As for tech-sloshing, it is always a danger, especially for any Cantonment that decides to "go native". However, then entire reason I picked this combination is because (pirates or not) the WYN already have plasma-F and plasma-D technology. This isn't new to them. And, even though I wanted to use WYN gunboats for this, they are specifically using plasmas. So while it is "ship-sloshing", it is not "tech-sloshing" as no one is getting any technologies they don't already have.

Xenocide,

The Cantonments obviously have an ability to create all of the plasma munitions they want, or they would have all died due to lack of munitions. Presumably, they can construct at least some plasma weapons, as they also have the ability to build at least fighters, if not gunboats, as they would have otherwise lost them all once the supply lines to ISC territory dried up.

Even having the ability to make gunboats themselves, there is advantage to the deal in that the ISC can then focus on using their limited building capabilities for other things instead of attrition units. By outsourcing that effort, they get to do other things instead.

The real point of the suggestion was to get a cool little historical oddity that doesn't change any established history, but adds some color to the story. Plus, it adds a neat little WYN gunboat variant with an odd weapons arrangement. Also note that the WYN plasma gunboat is still markedly inferior to any of the "real" plasma gunboats. They are good enough, but no where near optimal. In fact, they are a step-down from the real ISC gunboat, but are still good enough to make the deal worthwhile.

(And it would likely be something no other Cantonment would bother with, as their own gunboats are superior to a WYN plasma gunboat. Making an arrangement like this would take a Cantonment leader who is willing to work well outside established or even recommend procedures to do this. He or she will be violating all sorts of rules doing this.)

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Wednesday, September 04, 2019 - 07:11 pm: Edit

IIRC, the WYN Fish Ships were originally made as a "Generic Disruptor/Drone" family of ships.

In that vein, the standard Freedom Fighter is a good "Generic Disruptor/Drone" gunboat.

What about a generic "Plasma" family of ships? Would this gunboat variant be a good generic "Plasma" gunboat? I think so.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Thursday, September 05, 2019 - 09:52 am: Edit

Is it SFU canon that the ISC set up weapon manufacturing in their neutral zone deployments? Seems like it would interfere with their primary duties and give them more stuff they have to protect in a potentially hostile environment.

I expect it is more likely they loaded up a large surplus of fighters, PFs, plasma-D torps, and repair parts and took them with them to their new bases when they set up shop in the neutral zones. If it can be a year (or more?) before you can expect a supply request to home to be able to get you specific items you have to have a big stockpile plus the ISC had to plan for periodic blockades by the various powers in an attempt to starve their deployments.

I also like the idea of a WYNnish or other generic plasma boat PF.