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	Archive through October 21, 2019	25		10/21 11:32pm

There is a type of Skiff, the landing boat, that appears to be somewhat different in deployment from other skiffs.

Could a “System Defense Boat” variant exist?

Granted, it’s more related to Steve Jackson’s Traveler GURPs area... but it would be a specialized small craft limited to the defense of a single planet. At least that is how it was handled in the Traveler game system.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, October 21, 2019 - 07:12 pm: Edit

The technological assumptions between Traveller (note the spelling) and the SFU are very different, so making direct comparisons is harder than you might think.

That said, gunboats pretty much fill that role in the SFU. When assigned to a planet, they are stationed there and stay there. They are small craft that are used to fight about their weight against incursions.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, October 21, 2019 - 08:15 pm: Edit

A skiff variant System Defense Boat would be made obsolete when PFs are invented.

Plus, since skiffs CAN NOT be organized to fight as a flotilla, must be limited by the limits in command rating. (I.E. limited to the maximum number of ships able to be commanded by the local flagship, base station or star base present in the star system or planetary orbit.)

As such, I would expect to see SDBs only present at poor or newly organized worlds that can't pay for anything better.

Perhaps at planets that do not even have a organized Planetary Defense Battalion.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Monday, October 21, 2019 - 10:50 pm: Edit

I've always been under the impression that the Systems Defense Boats in Traveller were something more akin to SFB Bombers than anything else.

While I don't have any GURPS Traveller books handy*, IIRC, the basic book from the series has a "Patrol Cruiser" class of ship that's meant as a type of law enforcement ship. This ship, as I see it, is something more akin to a Security Skiff.


(* While SJG's GURPS, and Marc Miller's Traveller, are both excellent games, I have to prioritize what games I have on my active shelves. Guess what's most prominent... )

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, October 21, 2019 - 11:32 pm: Edit

Equating a "Patrol Cruiser" from Traveller to a security skiff is fair. A Traveller system defense boat, as compared to a Traveller patrol cruiser, trades long range "jump drives" for faster normal space drives and armor. The weapons are basically the same. That distinction means nothing in the SFU. As such, the best equivalent to a Traveller system defense boat is also a security skiff. (With both eventually being replaced by gunboats.)

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 12:04 am: Edit

Traveller SDBs come in a range of sizes. The closest SFB equivalent would be a monitor in terms of lots of combat ability but limited strategic mobility. Would it be possible to create a monitor style concept on a skiff sized hull? Would something that size and that well armed not make the early interceptors look like bad designs?

I think the SDB concept as presented in Traveller won't work in SFB.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Guys, in SFBs we effectively already HAVE a SDB unit at any populated planet where skiffs are present. Granted, there is a varied number of seekers, security, slammers or modular couriers, and there is a hard limit on how many can be commanded in battle by what ever unit has the highest F&E command rating.

The problem is such a group of skiffs should have a defense COMPOT of some value. The offensive cOMPOT perhaps half (or less) than the def COMPOT. Trying to value skiffs combat BVPs might be more difficult to determine.

We know that skiffs are not as good as PFs.

Another difference, is once PFs get deployed (1 flotilla per PDB) the number of flotillas equal the number of PDBs, where as the SDB group is likely limited to 1 group of skiffs per PDU.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - 04:09 am: Edit

Wouldn't the skiffs in F&E end up being factored into the PDUs?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - 07:12 am: Edit

Jon, that is a fair interpretation, I think.

It should be pointed out that we are not talking about a large increase in COMPOT here.

The best Estimate is that a security skiff might be worth is a split 1/2 (one offensive COMPOT, two defensive COMPOT), other types (seeker, modular courier) a 0/2 for each.

In comparison, PF COMPOT is 2/2.

AND that such System Defense Boat groups would be limited to a single group per each Planetary Defense Unit, not each Planetary Defense Battalion.

That means that a Major Planet could have up to four PF flotillas (one each for each PDB). Each Minor planet could have up to two PF flotillas. But any planet that is printed on the f&e map could only have a single SDB unit.

A SDB group might end up being defined as containing 1 MCourier, 3 Seekers, 2 Security or in F&E terms, a split 2/6 COMPOT.

No way to know if a Slammer should be included, or not. Or what factors a slammer should have. (No heavy PFs exist, and a SLAMMER is a heavy skiff.)

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - 09:27 am: Edit

All the ground bases in Planetary Defense Battalion combined only provide 3 COMPOT. I doubt any skiff could provide 2 defense factors and the modular courier is even less effective. I think the skiffs would be ignored in F&E just like small orbiting bases.

They might absorb fire on the turn before the attacker gets close enough to engage the ground bases. The skiff's impact on a fleet action near a planet would be minimal.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Taken strictly they would be awful. I would stat them at 1/1 instead of 1/2 to factor in the comparative defensive weakness due to lower speed and no PF Scout compared to a PF. Then they also take command slots so no one is going to use them unless there is literally nothing else and that rarely happens in a battle over an F&E planet.

Maybe they can be used to react and pin something out? Even that seems dubious considering their use profile. If a fighter or PF could do it a skiff could physically do it but not sure they could 'harass' enough to be worth a pin factor.

Skiffs could be subsumed into an optional rule I have been playing around with that allows a player to add a variable number of fighter factors to an engagement when fought in their space to represent fighter and/or bomber assets, skiffs, smaller orbital bases, minefields, ground bases, and other naval and local auxiliaries that can resist from the abstracted forces not represented on the map that are spread out through friendly space.

My limited playtesting shows it is mildly pro-Alliance early though I allowed it in captured territory so it also messes with Alliance counterattacks. Basically you get a d8 of "fighter" factors in each province you control where there is at least one battle. Captured provinces that are not fully annexed get a 1/3 or 2/3 modifier to the roll based on how long it has been occupied. The numbers should technically be higher (no one is likely to send 2 fighters) but the lower number represents the logistical difficulty of using them and their makeshift and relatively untrained nature. You can call up local forces in all battle hexes in your space even if the battle hex is a capitol, a planet, or base with the limit that each province can only roll once. If a province has multiple battle hexes then the owner can distribute the factors rolled as they wish between them. There are no restrictions on how these factors are split. The factors called up cannot be used to replace fighter factors on any carrier or base or PDU so they can only operate as an independent squadron and each command slot can only hold 2 factors (making their combat density terrible as it should be).

In an empire that does not have fighters (for pre-GW scenarios) roll a d6 instead due to being limited to skiffs, bombers, and naval auxiliaries. Pre-bombers you get a d4 and each command slot can only hold one factor.

Empires get an additional d6 of PF factors as local forces once the empire reaches full PF deployment to represent their support (again weakened due to being spread out, at the edge of range etc). You get a d2 at PF1 and a d4 at PF2 (to represent their rollout and inferior early interceptors). Feds instead roll a d10 for fighter factors when the third way is implemented to represent increased assets. These PFs CAN be used to refill bases and tenders in a battle hex and can replace gunboats lost so you do not have to pay for their replacement (if you have enough). You never pay for using or losing these PF replacements or fighter factors. This also mimics the way PFs favor the defender and explain in a small way how their introduction bogged down the war.

These forces come into being before battle resolution begins and after all operational movement. Each province can call up these forces so if there are multiple battles you have to distribute. Calling them up is optional. All forces are called up at this time. There are two exceptions.

1. If a retreat creates a battle hex or hexes in a province where no local forces were called up they may be called up as soon as the battle hex is created.

2. If a retreat moves a stack or stacks into a province they do not control and does not create a battle hex and local forces were not previously called up they may be called up. Note that battle may be declined as below in this case.

Note that in both exceptions the local forces must be called up immediately even if they are not the next battle hex to be resolved.

Local forces may be called up in a non-battle hex or hexes and create a battle hex only when there are no battle hexes in the province and the opponent choose to fight may decline battle in which case no local forces show up. If the opponent declines battle they CANNOT capture the province in that turn. By declining battle you are limiting yourself to province disruption even if there are no enemy units in the province (basically you are raiding and not conquering and can easily avoid a conflict with fighters, skiffs, and armed freighters). You can only decline battle if the hex was not already a battle hex.

A province is not conquered even if all other normal conditions for conquest are met if either of the following two conditions exist:

1. Local forces still exist in the province (in practice this means something retreated from them)
2. Battle with local forces was declined in this province (they were just disrupting the province and did not want a fight).

Neutral Zone hexes only get local forces if they are a battle hex. You cannot call up local forces to create a battle hex. Any controlled neutral zone hex that is already a battle hex may call up local forces normally. If a neutral zone hex is uncontrolled no local forces may be called up.

In battle local forces are treated as fighter factors and PF factors that can only function as independent squadrons but because they include slower units or attrition units under fuel constraints you cannot select a battle intensity rating of greater than 2 while using these units on the battle line. If you transfer PFs to another tender (base, PDU, tender) they no longer experience this restriction. Even though the fighter factors sometimes represent skiffs and armed freighters and the like X-ships still treat them as fighter factors for their bonuses.

Another rule I am going to try out next time is that three factors are cancelled for each enemy G unit anywhere in the province (even if not in the battle hex with the local forces) to represent the effectiveness of an occupying force in putting down small local resistance. This applies when the local forces are called up just before battle resolution and is not mitigated if the G units are lost or retreat from the province. It does not use up the G units or prevent them from acting normally in every other respect. The Gorn can calculate whether they cancel factors based on how many bonus G units they would get from the total of all their ships anywhere in the province. Provinces (but not neutral zone hexes) controlled by the Gorn ignore the first enemy G unit for this purpose. Gives G ships a minor bonus and something else to do and gives a minor boost to the Gorn which, in my opinion, gives them some flavor. There also should be a Prime Team mission to weaken this as well.

My playtesting (fair warning, I am not good and neither is my usual opponent) shows it as working pretty well so far. In my latest game we used local forces in a non-battle hex when you were taking a province but not when you were just disrupting it. This created more of a feeling of invasion when you move in and subjugating the locals. It does slow the initial Coalition invasions a little with the need to throw more than one frigate in to take a province but it also makes it more difficult for the Alliance to take them back, especially if it is held for a while. It has almost no effect when the huge fleets come out, particularly if there are G ships in the group. I only played this in the late war once and the PFs were a bit of a gamechanger in slowing the Alliance counteroffensives which balanced (in this limited experience) the early Alliance boost in slowing the Coalition a little. There were more smaller engagements and it is tempting to garrison provinces a little more strongly to hopefully kick in the teeth of the invader.

One problem we found is that the original owner's local forces spring back up when a province is liberated to full strength. I am probably going to use the captured markers working up to annexation to represent how long a province has been liberated and use the same modifiers to strength to represent rebuilding local defenses. This would not influence the economic value of the province at all, just the local forces. I had a weird system for neutral zone hexes but threw it out as too complicated and just decided these hexes have no local forces unless there is a battle in the hex and then each hex counts as its own province. Slowing taking neutral zone hexes with local forces would slow the Coalition too much and also result in weirdness when you claim hexes between two friendly powers. Neutral planets do get a roll for local forces when they are attacked. Local forces cannot react or retreat. They also do not show up during a raid. I toyed with rolling and on a 1 in 6 chance of getting local forces during a raid to represent an intel failure but it seemed too fiddly.

The other issue we faced is that taking out undefended and underdefended BATs and provinces can take a bit more force. This does slow the Coalition some but is partially mitigated by their defenses in the late game being much better. Still, we have kind of agreed they need more help. The solution we plan to try is to add another unit in the same vein. A naval aux ship. Represents armed freighters and other light ships (national guard?) used to assist the main fleet. It is a 2/2 (with no crippled side) that operates under the same restrictions as the local forces factors (can only pick a battle intensity of 2 or lower), move like an auxiliary carrier, and counts as a slow unit for retreat. In my mind this looks like this:

Klingons 13 (6 Kzinti border, 2 Fed, 2 Hydran, 1 Tholian, 2 Home)
Lyrans 10 (4 Kzinti, 2 Hydran, 2 Home, 2 Far Stars)
Romulan 4 (1 Fed, 1 Gorn, 1 Home, 1 Tholian)
Federation 7 (1 Klingon, 1 Romulan, 1 Kzinti, 1 Gorn, 1 Tholian, 1 2nd Fleet, 1 Home)
Kzinti 5 (1 Klingon, 1 Lyran, 1 Federation, 1 Home, 1 Barony)
Gorn 3 (1 Fed, 1 Romulan, 1 home)
Hydran 4 (1 Klingon, 1 Lyran, 1 Home, 1 Old Colonies)

Each turn at full war economy every empire get the following automatically:

Feds and Klingons: 3;
Romulans, Gorn, Kzinti, Hydrans, and Lyrans: 2 Tholians: 1

At Limited War or 75% exhaustion every empire is reduced to 1 per turn except for the Tholians who get none. At peacetime or 50% exhaustion no more are received. Note the Romulans are on a wartime economy and get 2 per turn as PWC. Same with the Hydrans.

These can be placed at the capitol or at any starbase. I suppose I should give a cost to buy them but why would anyone want to? The hope is that these will give the Coalition some early compot to back up minor battles that local forces will make more difficult and some garbage attrition ships to take hits when the real navy contests provinces.

On a minor note (after that novel) I used the same mechanic in the Four Powers War to represent their early Attack Shuttle use in their. I added one fighter factor to the Kzinti for every six ships/bases/PDUs in a battle before general fighter deployment during the period of Attack Shuttle deployment (for any fractions roll a die and get a factor if you roll is equal to or less than the number of "ships" that do not add up to six). Base Stations and BATs count as two ships for this purpose. Starbases count as four. These function the same way as the local forces and take a command slot for every two factors, the idea being they are not very good (which they were not). They cannot react out or do anything other than participate in the battle. These can retreat with a group of ships but only if the group can hold them at the 6 to 1 ratio. They do not count for pinning.

And wow, okay, ADHD moment, sorry for the long post.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - 06:17 pm: Edit

Jon, I agree! Wow.

Just a couple of nits to pick.

We are discussing this in a Star Fleet Battles topic, not F&E. yes, I quoted some f&e factors in an attempt to give comparisons (that are known in F&E). The factors hadn't been defined for SDBs so I was talking about those designs we have.

A part of your post above may accurately portray current published skiffs, and Personally, I think you come very close on most of it.

The part that is missing is where I asked the question if System Defense Boats could exist. We haven't defined factors yet, so that part is not included in your analysis. (Well, that's assuming a SDB is possible... we do not know if a specialized skiff design intended for pure planetary Defense is possible.)

The only thing that comes to mind, is the point that PDB ground bases ignore the affects of atmosphere during combat. That means attackers are shooting into a ECM Defense that the PDU ground bases don't have to.

Can these SDBs likewise ignore the affects of atmosphere? Again, we don't know, but if they could, it would both improve the SDBs ability to survive and cause damage to the enemy.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - 06:38 pm: Edit

I do not see these "defense units" showing up in F&E at all. A medium planet has a lot of shuttles each with a phaser-3 which adds up to Fralli-level firepower -- and they don't show up. So these won't either.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - 07:59 pm: Edit

Fair enough.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - 08:05 pm: Edit

I thought the issue with "Ionic Charges" that plagues PFs is a direct function of their ability to use warp packs. Because IIRC workboats don't have the ionic charge problem nor packs.

But I probably am just delusional (again).