Several new PFs have been proposed in the last day, in apparent anticipation of an eventual Module K2. I would like to propose a "partially new" type of PF tender. I say "partially new" because a number of ships meeting the general parameters I am about to propose already exist. But I believe a lot more of this type ought to exist.

A "Heavy RTN Hunter" is a cruiser or dreadnought-based ship with special sensors (usually two, but some would have four) and substantial integral firepower, as well as a full PF flotilla (and maybe fighters as well, depending on the empire). The purpose of these ships would be finding RTN nodes and being able to attack them immediately, without waiting for reinforcements. If the node is too strong for the Heavy RTN Hunter to engage by itself, it would at least be strong enough to have a good chance of surviving Andromedan attempts to destroy it. The heyday for these ships would date from approximately the discovery of the RTN to the end of Operation Unity. Some might have continued in service after Unity. But they were primarily specialized anti-Andromedan ships.

As previously mentioned, a number of ships that fit these general requirements already exist, including both standard-tech and X-tech ships. The Kzinti Super Space Control Ship is, in my opinion, king of the Heavy RTN Hunters. But ships like the Fed GVX or Romulan Firehawk-EX (may be mis-remembering the designation - I'm talking about the PF tender version of the FHX) are formidable examples of the class as well. Heavy RTN Hunters will be expensive but their ability to destroy an RTN node (sometimes...) without waiting for reinforcements, and their increased survivability in the face of Andro attempts to destroy the Alpha Sector empires' scouts, make them well worth the extra cost.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, September 04, 2019 - 06:22 pm: Edit

And if Andromedan reinforcements show up sooner than expected …

Remembering the Gallant Endeavour's last mission [Lyran SCS-tug] …

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, September 04, 2019 - 09:38 pm: Edit

Stewart,

That's a risk. But a Heavy RTN Hunter is still more survivable than lighter ships. There would very likely be cases where the arriving Andros are enough to smash a ordinary scout, but not one of these ships. It's my contention that the lower loss rate, and the ability to sometimes destroy RTN nodes by itself, are more than adequate compensation for the higher cost.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Monday, April 03, 2023 - 10:55 pm: Edit

This is similar in thought to the "Strike Tender" class I've always wanted published. Basically a CA / CC sized hull that's also a PF Tender.

I didn't include Special Sensors in my design, since I envisioned them being paired with small scout or using the PFs as a scouting force.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, April 04, 2023 - 06:44 pm: Edit

There are NCA-PFTs out there, already in R10.

K-DWP (D5W-PFT)
F-NVA/NVH (NCA-NVH w/ either F111s or A-20s)
R-FHE
G-CMP

can't remember the others.

Then there are the DCSs. NCA+PFT+CV w/o heavy weapons.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, April 04, 2023 - 07:38 pm: Edit

The Kzinti NPF, Hydran Seminole (unbuilt variant), and Lyran NPF are the other NCA-PFTs.

Basically look at any of these and ask yourself what you give up to fit a pair of scout channels - and consider that “a pair of phasers” is pretty much the starting point.

What would probably be a better candidate as the base (coming at it from either the Heavy RTN or Strike Tender angle) would be the BCS: drop the fighter complement and add the special sensors. X-ships and dreadnoughts are both expensive and rare enough that creating such specialized designs outside of the ones that already exist (ie that the empires in question already saw as being worth building) would take too much resources by the time the Alpha empires realized they needed them. Whereas a BCH-based hunter, while still expensive, is not SC2 or X-tech expensive, and the larger hull compared to a CA/NCA makes fitting the sensors and retaining primary firepower more doable.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, April 04, 2023 - 08:03 pm: Edit

What new PFs have been proposed? I'd love to see them.

The only "new" PFs I know of are the K1 and R1. Both of those were caused by Federation Commander, not K2. (The K1 has been talked about off and on for a long time. The R1 was very recent and inspired by a typo on an FC ship card.)

That all said, I'm down for these combat oriented PF tenders. I'm also down for K2, for that matter.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, April 04, 2023 - 09:53 pm: Edit

I've asked myself many times over the years what new PF designs could be added, and I generally come up empty.

Sure, there are some utility-type PFs that could be made, but those aren't very exciting.

Then there are the "Heavy PFs" (which are to PFs what Heavy Fighters are to Fighters), but I'm fairly certain those have always been insta-reject. Even if they aren't auto-rejected, I'm not sure they add anything special.

I'm not saying there aren't ANY PF designs that couldn't find a home, but I feel like the "PF role that most / all races use" is going to be hard to find.

All of that said, I'm more interested in K2 than I am in J3. Give us more variety in PF Tenders (bigger, smaller, ad-hoc) and maybe some special PF-specific rules (though that gets back to the same issue above). We could definitely fill a module given time.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Tuesday, April 04, 2023 - 10:14 pm: Edit

Heavy PFs exist, most nations call them FFs.

Robert, your quote of "PF role that most / all races use" popped a funny idea into my head for a possible new PF. The AxPF (Auxiliary PF). We already have AxPFTs so why not?

Kidding, though.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, April 04, 2023 - 10:21 pm: Edit

Mike,

I've proposed a few new PFs over the years but can't find them now. They may have been archived or consolidated into some other topic. (You can find some stuff here but you have to dig through a lot of posts.)

One new PF I've argued for (unsuccessfully, so far) is a drone-armed Lyran PF, replacing both disruptors with Type-A racks. The main objection has been that this is "tech-sloshing" but I'm not so sure that's a valid point because the Lyrans already have drone-armed fighters, courtesy of the Klingons. Drone-armed Lyran ships are problematic because the ships have ESGs. But no PF has an ESG and I could see the Lyrans fielding at least a few such PFs, though only in small numbers.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, April 04, 2023 - 10:29 pm: Edit

Alan? What would you say about, instead of using PFs for the Drone armed experiment, the Lyrans were to use a couple INT.

Game universe history, the Lyrans replaced the Disruptor on a few INT that were casually carried by warships and intended to provide ECM Drones for their mothership (and possibly other ships operating with it)

The experiment was regarded as a colossal failure due to both the small number of drones available and the vulnerability of the INT to enemy action.

This failure soured Lyran High Command from attempting the same sort of conversion with the larger PFs.

Anyhootch, that's just a screwball idea off the top of my head.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Tuesday, April 04, 2023 - 11:06 pm: Edit

@Jamey Johnson - that's exactly they type of PF that could find a home in K2. It's valid, it's useful, it's just not "sexy."

Is the Type-H drone still super-limited in deployment? Because I could see a series of Assault PFs for each race: Drone users get PFs mounting Type-H drones, Plasma gets "Plasma-S canisters that cripple the PF when launched", etc.

Then there's the Long Range PF, the Spy PF, the Police PF, the Black Ops PF (which is somehow different from the Spy PF).

The ideas are out there, it's just a matter of them actually adding something to the game AND making sense within the universe.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, April 05, 2023 - 03:36 am: Edit

AxPF = security skiff

PFs cannot carry type-H drones

By Steve Stewart (Stevestewart) on Wednesday, April 05, 2023 - 07:29 am: Edit

Weren't there heavy PFs in SSJ#1? I remember a Lyran trimaran design and a Gorn PF with a rear bubble.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, April 05, 2023 - 08:34 am: Edit

Yes, heavy PFs were done in SSJ. They were impossible to build.

Also, except for discussion of the RTN hunters themselves, the rest of this should probably move to the K2 topic. (Which does exist.)

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, April 05, 2023 - 12:11 pm: Edit

One idea I had is for a Hydran mixed armament PF-leader. Replace two PH-2 with a fusion beam and fighter box.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, April 05, 2023 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Again, any PF idea posted here are probably gonna get lost. Please post them in the K2 topic (which exists).

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, April 05, 2023 - 06:37 pm: Edit

I think such a PF would be more useful on heavy RTN hunters fielding flotillas.

Vudar Fi-con PFs might be useful as RTN hunters as well.