This not really a "flagship", but the term is taken from the Police Flagship series of ships. The base idea is that a leader gunboat is used as the base, and then it removes weapons and APR to add in a special sensor, mine rack, barracks, and cargo. The exact number of each depends on how many weapons are removed, though it never has more than one special sensor. It is, effectively, a mini-police flagship.

The idea is that this is often the first gunboat a lot of growing colonies obtain. For the price of a leader gunboat, they can accomplish the tasks of four other gunboats. When the colony grows enough, it then starts to purchase the specialty gunboats. Even after obtaining proper specialist gunboats, the colony would usually continue to make use of this gunboat to help fill in gaps as necessary.

The mech link can carry whatever shuttle is needed, typically either am MSS, GAS, or Admin. It cannot "lead" a flotilla, but if it was attached to a flotilla, that flotilla can have neither a leader or scout. As a result, these were almost never deployed in a flotilla.

No modular gunboat (MRN or Starhawk) has modules to these specifications, as even a single modular gunboat can just have the appropriate modules and swap out for whatever role is needed.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Mike,

I have to take issue with your claim about the price of these "flagship gunboats". They will not be "the price of a leader gunboat". It has a special sensor. That means that it will probably be significantly more expensive that a leader gunboat. A PF scout is easily the most expensive PF in the flotilla, about twice the cost of the leader or four times the cost of the standard "shooters". (Note that I am using economic point value here, which I believe is more appropriate than combat BPV for this discussion.)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Mike West:

Observation: If leader variants of gunboats were that easy to produce, then there would be entire flotillas composed of them, at the very least scouts would be based on them for the additional power to operate the special sensors. Apparently cramming in the leader systems and the two extra shield boxes (after the shield refit is applied to non-leader fast patrol ships, the #1 shield remains two boxes stronger at 14 boxes compared to the 12 boxes on non-leader fast patrol ships) comes at some cost which prevents their proliferation.

I can almost (almost) see including a minesweeping capability for such a "flagship" fast patrol ship, as a raider might leave a mine or three when it departed. But I cannot see fitting it with a mine rack. The problem is that colony planets generally do not have minefields, so there is no point in being able to provide a patch to such a minefield. And the mine racks on fast patrol ships are restricted to 50% of the capacity of normal mine racks on ships in any case (either two NSMs or four small mines, or one NSM and two small mines, compared to four NSMs or eight small mines on a ship's mine racks). As it is intended to operate from a colony, it does not have the same need as a police flagship to sweep mines or patch a minefield somewhere in the entire province.

There is also the issue (in this minesweeping thing) that if the need to sweep mines around a colony was so prevalent, that surely some variant of a Skiff would have appeared between Y150 and Y178 that could sweep such mines. Note that this does not mean that the minesweeping capability is out, but that either such a variant of a Skiff may need to be developed or some explanation of why no such variant ever appeared.

Barracks on a gunboat can hold 10 boarding parties, but it is in pretty cramped conditions for the purposes of the specific mission. So I think you do not intend that this barracks always has 10 boarding parties, but represents the ability to take some troops from the colony's defense forces to deal with some issue (a riot on a colony of the colony within the planetary system for example). On that basis I would not be opposed to it, but would be opposed if you were trying to say the boat always had these 10 boarding parties.

Same deal with cargo, of course. Just a capability that the player can assign to the boat, e.g., to carry spare parts to a disabled freighter, or to some location in the colony's system.

Frankly, I would suggest installing repair and a mech-link for towing other PFs (or I guess you could just use the tow bar) so that it could be used to rescue Workboats that might be operating in the system or nearby, which might be when such a boat as this appears.

But I do not think you can make it on a leader hull.

Note, my opinions, not a fiat "no."

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 03:38 pm: Edit

I concur with Alan.

Plus, the mine rack is functionally useless as colonies (other than war time, and then only in colonies with significant defenses already, ) do not normally have mine fields.

The needs for gunboats are traditionally satisfied by the placement of an operations base along with a complement of skiffs.

Larger colonies, minor or major worlds will eventually get issued gunboats with their PDUs.

You might consider a leader skiff design for the same functions, but trying to shoehorn one into a PF might prove to be very challenging.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Sorry, SPP posted while I was composing.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Should a Repair Box really be allowed on a PF to repair (presumably other SC-5 units only)?

Could they really carry that many supplies to restore 50 repair points worth of gear (unless you lessen the # of repair points).

Wouldn't a PF-mech link more appropriate to "salvage" another PF?

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Scott;

The Recovery PF from R12 has a repair box. That ship as sailed.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Scott Tenhoff:

A little late for that argument: See Repair fast patrol ships (R1.PF9) in Module R12.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 05:42 pm: Edit

Sigh, delayed by a phone call so my response came in after A. David Merritt, but as noted he is correct.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 06:27 pm: Edit

The premise that Mike West started with is plausible. The issues that people have brought up tend to focus on his chosen method.

One of the problems, to state it boldly, is the mission exists across tech eras. MIke appears to be trying to justify a "bootstrap" development process for a poor colony using PF tech.

The need, as noted above was addressed by the introduction of the operations base and various assigned skiffs.

Just what was used before the introduction of skiffs has yet to be addressed.

Still, there is no fundamental reason why colonial development couldn't use work boats for the same task after the end of the General War.

Might even just need a PF hanger pod on a commercial platform or a SAMS. Or some other basing option.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 06:45 pm: Edit

Ok. Let me redo the proposal. I still have enough left to work with.

So, no leader, just a standard gunboat. No mine rack, but it could sweep. Think about adding a repair.

Question: how expensive is a single special sensor? Since it is a standard hull, that synergy goes down. Since there is just a single box, it should be cheaper than a standard scout. If it doesn't work, I just won't include it, but it'd be pretty useful to include. I'm still trying for the mini police flagship.

Your assumption about the barracks is correct. It can either be used for fast transfer of some units, or use the "accommodations" for rescues or evacuations.

On design, typically there are four weapons plus the APR, for five boxes. That lets us use, for example: barracks, tran, trac w/ shuttle, trac w/ link, repair. Cargo isn't really needed, as there are so many other units that can be used. If special sensor is possible, we can either lose the trac w/ link (just use the tow bar) or lose a phaser. Probably lose the phaser. The shuttle could be Admin, MSS or GAS.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

Honestly, most of the missions could be handled by shuttles before skiffs show up.

GAS shuttles, HAS shuttles, HTS shuttles, HFS shuttles, VFS Shuttles, GBS shuttles, and plain old admin shuttles can handle most of the "people" and (with some exceptions) cargo missions within a system.

Mines do not show up until Y150, and from that point can be handled by MSS and MLS shuttles.

They cannot handle the scout functions, of course. And it would take a start up colony time to reach a point where it would be worth the deployment of a PDU which would bring GWS bases, but when you get to that point after the introduction of PFs you would probably (as you noted) get PFs with it.

Special sensors are pretty much limited to very few Civilian units, and mostly a military thing (which can afford them with the empire's budget). Off the top of my head, the only civilian units with special sensors are Exploration Freighters (representing a significant investment in trying to find new resources) and civilian base stations (representing a significant investment in monitoring traffic).

This would still be an issue even with the very reduced capabilities of special sensors on fast patrol ships (K1.75) compared to those on larger platforms, but do have some benefits for a flotilla not available to ships.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 07:19 pm: Edit

This may be a total misinterpretation on my part, but it almost looks to me like there's already a unit in the SFU that fills the role you're proposing this new unit to fill.

The unit I'm thinking of is the Modular Courier (R1.54). It appears to be based on the Traveller craft of the same name. A book I have on that craft, GURPS Traveller: Modular Courier, shows the craft as being able to be outfitted with any one of a VAST number of modules, and said modules can be changed out quickly and easily at Planetary Operations Bases.

That is, of course, IF the Modular Courier actually IS based on the other design. Is it, and if so, does it have the same modular interchangeability?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 09:33 pm: Edit

Mike West:

If you give up the tractor, you give up minesweeping. Sweeping with direct-fire weapons requires a tractor beam link to the mine to be swept. You do not need a tractor link to sweep with seeking weapons, but not all empires have access to seeking weapons, e.g., Tholians, Lyrans.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 10:07 pm: Edit

The Modular Courier has two NWO boxes which allows a lot of flexibility. I think all the Modular Cutter modules could be simulated except for the weapons pod. However, the Modular Courier will be very ineffective at mine sweeping having only a single phaser-3 which won't do the necessary 6 points of damage.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Saturday, September 14, 2019 - 11:46 pm: Edit

On the subject of a planet having been raided and fears/suspects a mine (or three), were I the planetary authority, I'd identify the potential mined route as a "Do not go through here" area for local traffic, then when the local FLG shows up to investigate the incident, I'd pass my concerns on to them and have THEM clean it up.

For this reason, I'd suggest that having a Flagship Gunboat have minesweeping capabilities isn't necessary.

My 0.002 Quatloos worth

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 12:11 am: Edit

SPP,

Ok, so special sensors are expensive enough that if the colony could afford them, they can afford an actual flotilla. Got it.

Also, I was reducing from two tractors to one, not removing the only one. I was keeping the tractor with the shuttle and potentially sacrificing the one with the gunboat link. So, not only could it tractor the mine, but it could be carrying a MSS to help, too.

In the end, it won't be as useful as I'd hoped, but it still multi-role and potentially useful.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 12:56 am: Edit

Mike West:

You might want to review the work boat ssd and module R rule description.

Iirc, the work boats trade weapons and crew for non combat systems and extended endurance.

Plus, SPP comments referencing shuttles ability to handle colony development (minus the special sensor part, unfortunately...) would seem to imply that colonial development may be a general tech requirement, and less than a specialized one.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 02:47 am: Edit

Jeffrey George Anderson:

Several issues. The biggest is the simple fact that typically there is only one police flagship in the province, and its multiple capabilities on one hull could result in its being very busy, and your colony is not a top priority. So "a note will be sent through channels, and we will wait for a reply, but until we get an answer," no freighters will visit your colony. (Borrowed from "Itazuki Tower.")

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 05:30 am: Edit

Re: minesweeping.

1) I proposed a small, FAST minelayer designed to zip in, drop a number of mines randomly as they do a lap or two of the planet and then run away. SVC noted that mines laid in the couse of battle ALWAYS have tamper fuses and as such won't really make of an irritant. You just wait a week or so and they go away all on their own.

2) If the above is a misunderstanding on my part, a PF designed to sweep mines just needs the special minesweeper sensors and mech limks for MSS. No need for tractors/ DF or seeking weapons/ or volunteers (a pf that sets off a NSM at range 1 is in big trouble).

3) Actually, sweeping mines, AWAY from the front is probably a perfect job for a Free Trader or whatever CV. Just load up the bays with MSS and amble over.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 11:00 am: Edit

Jeff,

I fail to see the what workboats have to do with this topic. Workboats are made to fill an entirely different role than this submission. Workboats are a de-militarized cargo boat that has two general systems added and range extended so it can serve as a full mini-starship. It is a generalist boat with no real specialization (aside from the aforementioned cargo capability). Absolutely none of which has anything to do with this submission. (It's real purpose is to be an "adventurers' ship" that PCs can realistically own and use without oversight.)

The point of the flagship gunboat is to fill several roles well enough with a single unit, rather than having a specialist unit for each role. However, it is not a generalist boat, but rather a boat with multiple specialization.

Mike,

As for minesweeping, that is just an extra role this ship can do. The tractor is for carrying an MSS as much as it is for minesweeping. That it can also carry a different shuttle, too, increases the versatility.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 11:23 am: Edit

I meant that colonial development is a managerial control function, and that if shuttles, skiffs and civilian ships (free traders, freighters etc.) can conduct the tasks that need to be completed, a specialized work boat might be justified for smaller production projects that do not have Star Fleet Corps of engineers in control.

Think of it as a construction shack that directs and controls the various work teams and the equipment that is in use.

Cheaper than building a temporary base on every planet to oversee construction. Might be very handy on those planets without indigenous populations.

developing the planetary resources for mining, agriculture, science out posts, even prison worlds require personnel on a temporary basis. Temp housing, a supply Function, fresh water, sanitary waste processing, etc.

A leader variant to control the work boats, skiffs, shuttles or other civilian support vessels might well be needed to control the work assigned to the many units involved.

Then again, it's just another target to shoot at in terms of star fleet battles.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 12:54 pm: Edit

That would be a completely separate submission you are more than welcome to make. But it is not the one I am making. This is a very specific submission that is intentionally designed to only require the one gunboat. Making something that requires a whole system of stuff is pretty much antithetical to this submission.

Honestly, the genesis of the idea was an accident and the only reason I posted it is to give more material to a theoretical Module K2.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 04:50 pm: Edit

We agree on building background for Module K2.

The military is not the only user of command functions. Star fleet commands fleets of star ships, national guard has many battalions deployed on a multitude of planets, even the Federation Postal service has unknown numbers of CCS stations deployed as infra structure supporting sub space communications.

A construction command unit directing those efforts is logical.

Such a supposed command unit, could also command civilian shuttles, skiffs and work boats in emergency combat situations.

Ever see the old john Wayne movie "Seabees"? Not a bad introduction for the navy's construction battalions in service in WW2.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Sunday, September 15, 2019 - 05:16 pm: Edit

SPP, if I may play Devil's Advocate for a moment, I've long believed that the FLG has all those capabilities on it as a cost-saving measure in not having all of those specialized ships out there, and that having all those specialized ships would be a waste of resources.

Also, it seems reasonable to assume that a planet getting raided by a pirate has GOT to have something there worth the investment on the part of the pirate to go after it, and, as such, the regional politicians would want to let the people (Voters? Taxpayers? Campaign Contributors?) "Know" they regard the "Attack" on them was taken VERY seriously.

Further, and again, I know I could be wrong about this (I often am ), but I've always thought that an attack by a pirate on a colony wouldn't be an everyday event; something the SFU Brass might regard as an eqivalent to a Biker Gang raiding or attacking a whole town (as opposed to an ordinary take-over bank robbery by one or two lone operatives).

It's for these reasons that I figure the local Top Brass among the Police would make a fast response to a pirate raiding a planet a high priority. Reassure the people and have their investigators figure out what clues there are (if any) on how the pirates knew where/when to hit, if there was any collusion with locals, and other investigative stuff.

Meanwhile, the minesweeping characteristics of the ship were made for it to "Sanitize" the area.

Again, my preconceptions may be way off, but that's why I figured the FLG would be used to clean up potential nuisance mines so soon after a pirate raid. I hope it is at least sensible (even if it isn't accurate)