The PRIMARY thing you want to sweep mines with a small ship is the darn MINESWEEPER sensor systems.

And a passel of MSS lets you sit at a decent range, with a warm WW in the bay if you get zorked and need to limp away.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 11:16 am: Edit

Don't gunboats with their hot engines burn out from regular use much more quickly then workboats and skiffs? It seems like a lot of up front cost for something you would have to regularly replace?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 12:14 pm: Edit

Jeffrey George Anderson:

Okay, your colony has called for the Police Flagship to come deal with a few mines so that merchant traffic can reach your colony. And the Police Flagship is ordered to do so.

Unfortunately, just as it was approaching your system the cruise liner Velvet Queen sent out an SOS that its life support system had failed and it is not able to reach a habitable planet before there are catastrophic consequences. Well, the passengers may not have as much voting power as your colony, but you are safe and warm with plenty of breathable air, so the Police Flagship says "sorry, get back as quick as I can" and dashes off to use its repair systems to fix the Velvet Queen.

Once the Velvet Queen is fixed, the Police Flagship heads for your colony again, but the notorious raider Hell's Vixen has attacked a convoy, and the Police Flagship has a sensor lock on it, and must follow it. If it can maintain the lock, it may be possible to follow the Hell's Vixen to "something interesting" (like say the local base it goes to so that the police can raid it) or at least maybe coordinate other units to close in and put the Hell's Vixen out of service. This is clearly of benefit to many "voters" in the area since the Hell's Vixen's operations impact multiple merchant ships delivering cargos to various colonies.

Sadly, as often happens, even though the Hell's Vixen probably did not know it was being tracked, its wily captain ducked into an ion storm, and contact was lost. Oh well, at least the Police Flagship can deal with your colony's problem now.

Oh, wait, there has been a "labor dispute" at the Moravia V satellite colony in the Moravia system, and this is disrupting the production of Calitech VI life support modules which are critical to the operations of not just the local merchant traffic, but the police and fleet units in the sector (buy local when you can). The Police Flagship must respond, dropping off its troops to secure the facilities from harm by the striking workers. It cannot simply drop off the troops and leave, as what if it needs the troops for some other function? So it is stuck in the system until the local major colony can assemble its own security force to protect the facilities from the strikers. But do not worry, the Police Flagship has not forgotten about you. Once the local security force is in place, the Police Flagship is again on its way to you.

Oops, the Pardinga colony has the same problem as you. But as your colony has all of 10,000 voters, and the Pardinga colony has 22,000 voters, you understand why your colony's need to have the situation resolved is taking second place, but we will get to you.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Michael Grafton:

That may be true for a minesweeping fast patrol ship, but not for a Police Flagship. A Police Flagship needs to detect the mine, get Range 1 to sweep it. HoWEVER, if it detects such a "nuisance mine," it does not have to worry about it being a "chain mine" (or in any way set up to trigger another mine), so it can approach the mine at very slow speed, reinforcing its facing shield such that even if a nuclear space mine detonates, the ship itself will be undamaged. It may take a little time to rejuvenate the shield back to full strength, but there are seldom going to be circumstances "in the normal course of business" where it will need to use the minesweeping shuttle. Those situations will mostly be "time sensitive" issues where the ship must accomplish the mine sweeping task and quickly move on if possible to some other task.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 02:15 pm: Edit

In my opinion, the FLAG should not leave dock without a POL or two by its side. It's far too valuable and too vulnerable to patrol alone by itself.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Going back to the original idea for this topic...

Mike West seems to want a command or support unit to operate with what ever non ship units a colony world can afford.

The original Monitor, with a support pallet would seem to fit... and now there is a light monitor that's been published, and an even lighter design(yis 100 boxes) proposed.

The "hardware" already exists. It's just not reflected in the module R ship descriptions.

Is there a need for other support ships to assist colonial development?

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 02:30 pm: Edit

I would suggest something based on a single-pod freighter. If it's just a settlement / small colony, I think a warship is overkill.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Garth posted while I was composing.

I agree that a FLAG should be the command ship in a provincial police troop. (We actually do not have a designated name for the yet...)

This is another one of those cans of worms that SPP hates to open.

Just how many police ships are there in a province. Do you count the planetary police that a major or minor world that happens to be in the province?

Where do you draw the line? Most would say if it's a POL class ship, you count it. What about police APT? Say it's on a fuel mission to keep the POL class ships "topped off". What about a police Q ship, engaged in anti piracy operations? Do you want it to "blow its cover" every time Jeffrey George Anderson panics about unexplored mines? How about Federation merchant marine small freighters that have a boarding party, or two being returned to its POL after taking a orion cartel prize ship back to the star base and the impound lot? What about the security skill ffs at various operations bases in the hexes in the province. Most such worlds would have be or even two security skiffs. You might have one or more operations bases in each f&e hex. (All told, you MIGHT have many security skiffs in the province.)!

It might even be possible to keep one or two security skiffs in attendance with the FLAG, in rotation between various ops bases.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 02:45 pm: Edit

I am talking about a gunboat that is a fraction of the cost of a monitor. A monitor is what a colony buys *way* down the line. I am talking about a unit that is likely the *first* non-shuttle support purchase. It costs about the same as 10 shuttles, but has much more versatility, has much greater speed, and has greater range.

Seriously, if a colony can buy a monitor, it already owns a gunboat flotilla. If a colony owns an entire flotilla, it also has the specialist variants running around. The only reason a colony that size has one of these units is because it was bought before the flotilla and is still working.

This is a gateway unit for a colony that isn't rich enough to buy anything else, and doesn't want to "waste" its other non-shuttle units on these roles. This is indeed a niche unit, but also one that has a well-defined niche that is non-zero in size where it can provide well-defined benefits.

Is it needed by every colony? No. But, every colony will go through the phase where this unit will be useful. Will all of them buy one at that time? Probably not. But, if it is available, many will.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 02:49 pm: Edit

For Garth's suggestion: Call it a "service pod".

It gets about 25 boxes: Something like 5 cargo, 1 transporter, 1 special sensor, 1 repair, 1 tractor, 4 shuttle (2 normal sized and one double sized), 3 labs (in normal use medical facilities), 1 probe, 1 360 ph-3, 1 barracks, 1 AuxBridge, 3 Impulse, 2 hull.

You can leave the pod and let it operate alone (5 shields all around, 1 excess damage, one non-zero box on each of the other tracks). Or it can operate as part of a freighter.

But really, is this anything but a target?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 04:13 pm: Edit

Since the term "flagship" makes little sense except as a comparison, I am going to now just call this submission a "generalist gunboat".

The generalist gunboat is going to be about the same cost as the "service pod". Meaning just the pod, not any freighter attached to it. As an added bonus, the generalist gunboat can also move. That usually helps some. (And I am assuming the pod has no special sensor. The generalist gunboat might be cheaper than the special sensor by itself, based on what people said earlier in the thread.)

But, to get back to the point, why the generalist gunboat instead of some random freighter hull (pod or no)? Several reasons. Oh, I should name them? Ok, here goes a few:
- The generalist gunboat about as expensive as the freighter bits. After you put in the pod, the gunboat is cheaper. So, it actually saves money.
- The gunboat is way, way faster. This can definitely matter when trying to move something around. Or someone needs you to be there *now*.
- The gunboat can actually land. This means it is easier to store and maintain. It also means it can get to a lot of places a freighter cannot.
- The gunboat can sweep a random mine. (Part of its declared feature set.)
- The gunboat can go bring another skiff/gunboat/ship to help. (It can pull way above its weight because of the engines. I think it can tow a small freighter faster than a small freighter can tow a small freighter.)
- You are not wasting a freighter that should be doing something else that makes money.
- Oh, and while this is probably irrelevant, it can totally kill that "service pod" whether it is part of a freighter or not.

Serious: Why would you buy an empty pod, then spend at least the same amount of money as the empty pod to fill it with system when it just sits there? Instead buy a generalist gunboat that is already pre-made to get stuff done. Not really seeing much competition here.

And, just to repeat myself for reinforcement, I am only talking about a portion of a colony's life cycle. If the colony has so many freighters running around that they can peel off as many as they want for service jobs, they probably already bought specialist gunboats so they don't have to.

By Mark Steven Hoyle (Markshoyle) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Didn't see a time period for the "ship"...

Wouldn't get one during the General War.
How effective afterwards:
ISC, the Andromedans....
With Orions using x-raiders in most of those periods....

Sounds like something a radical Pirate would run down just for Grins and Giggles....

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Mike West, a scout PF costs 100 Economic BPV, almost all for the two low capability PF-special sensors (25 or less for the rest of the craft).

A full sized special sensor costs roughly 10 EPV, based on auxiliaries and other ships with one as an option mount. And it's individually more capable as it's a ship special sensor rather than a PF special sensor.

Squeezing a special sensor into a gunboat sized target is EXPENSIVE. This is part of the established background. I can buy an entire Auxiliary scout for less than the cost of a PFS. The more capable system in the pod costs less.

This also applies to other stuff on the pod, the cargo is 50 spaces per box, the PF, if it has cargo, gets 25 spaces per box, the pod has internal shuttle bays, if the gunboat has a shuttle, it's external and occupies your tractor.

Basically, the same systems in a pod are both cheaper and more capable than the systems in a gunboat, and this is established in the rules.

That's why you'd use a pod rather than a gunboat. That plus having a YIS of 140 or so rather than 190 or so.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 04:52 pm: Edit

(responding to Mark) It's not meant to stop a warship. And its good at running away.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Both Steves have said that skiffs continue to be used in the Federation after the introduction of PFs/gunboats. Even with production curtailed by virtually all other empires, skiffs in those empires continue to be used.

Just what does this "generalist" gunboat give you, that a skiff can't provide?

Iirc, a PF requires a base or a tender to provide services (repairs, fuel, crew support since the crew can't inhabit a pf like a ship or skiff or work boat.) normal maintainence, for a skiff, according to SVC just requires use of a admin shuttle bay. (This was in one of the now deleted topics in the proposals topic, and led to the invention of the operations base.)

That means ANY ground base with shuttle box could support a skiff until the colony can purchase a operations base.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Mark,

Probably post-General War, but no reason it couldn't be late-General War for at least a couple of empires.

And its effectiveness doesn't change based on time period, either. It is not a combat ship, and isn't intended to be, despite its (most of the time) pair of Ph-2s. It can kill a freighter, but it would have trouble with many Free Traders, and any real warship will kill it - if it can be caught.

In addition, unlike any freighter variant, the generalist gunboat at least has a chance to get away. No freighter will. (And, most Orion raiders are still non-X. But, X or non-X, the gunboat is still just going to run away or die. The X part doesn't really matter.)

Douglas L,

Despite all of the points in your post, you still haven't really invalidated any of my points. It doesn't matter whether an individual system is more capable or not if it can't actually get where it needs to be. And a gunboat will be there and back before a small freighter's engines get there. And if the pod needs to be docked prior to leaving, the gunboat is there and back before it even *leaves*.

As for the special sensor, up in the thread, the point was made that sensors are extremely rarely used by civilian or auxiliary units. So, I doubt this pod is getting one either way. And, even taking your logic at face value, the pod with a sensor is going to be 50% more expensive than the generalist gunboat. So, yes, it still is worthwhile.

Finally, yes, prior to the existence of this gunboat, colonies have to use weird little pods, shuttles, and skiffs. This is already established and it is already built into the history of the SFU. This submission changes none of that, nor does it try to. Rather, this is an option later in history (probably Y185+) for those colonies where this would be useful.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 06:16 pm: Edit

In regards to the cost of a special sensor, recall that the BPV of a prospecting shuttle includes not just the cost of the shuttle itself (the sticker price), but also the "cost" (if it is destroyed) of its lost earning potential (apparently prospecting shuttles must offer a higher return on investment than other civilian shuttles).

In a similar way, the economic BPV of a PFS might include (beyond the sticker price) the cost of having diverted the special sensors from the civilian economy where they have lucrative civilian applications. Thus a civilian PF with special sensors might be cheaper than it seems when you factor in that it has some earning potential and lives a less dangerous life.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 06:18 pm: Edit

Jeff,

What does this provide over skiffs:
1) Outside the Federation, gunboats are being produced and skiffs are not. So, let's go with "availability".
2) I said "colony". So, yes, there is assumed to be facilities to maintain it somewhere. Shouldn't be an issue to have a casual gunboat base with one or two pads.
3) Can sweep a mine. I don't think a skiff can do that as easily. Can carry and use an MSS, too, if needed.
4) Can carry up to 10 marine units for short distances without making them just stand in a cargo bay.
5) Still faster.

This is basically just all of the variant non-combat gunboats rolled into one. If they are useful, so is this. But, really, #1 is basically the only answer I really need to give to your question. Not everything takes place in the Federation.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 07:33 pm: Edit

Okay, so that the planetary governor will stop screaming for the local police flagship (), what about the idea of three skids on a small freighter drive and command pod?

I'm thinking a Search-and-Rescue Skid, a Recovery Skid, and a Shuttle Skid (the latter outfitted to carry ADMIN and MSS instead of the HTS.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 11:14 am: Edit

Skiffs were still being produced in non-Federation empires.

You could not run this thing without a specialized base. The nature of a PF is that it builds up ionic charges that have to be flushed (or the PF eventually disintegrates). You need a base with the equipment to flush that system so you would need to design a base that can do this.

I am also pretty sure that no local system "buys" a monitor. One is assigned if the need exists.

We have established that just about anything this ship can do can be done by a skiff or freighter instead if needed so the main thing it provides that it is fast. What is the mission profile there? For minesweeping it is probably not going far (if there is a mine an enemy laid two systems over the general thought would be along the lines of 'who cares?'). It doesn't carry enough troops to raid anything more then an undefended colony and how often does a colony need to move troops out of system on short notice? It is also not suitable for long haul troop transport due to PF range restrictions.

Scout functions make some sense but unless this is a special sensor that is superior to that of a PF Scout it is more limited and tacintel and presumably detection capability is only marginally better than a conventional ship without a special sensor. What is it doing with it? It is presumably not flying all the time scanning surrounding space due to wear and tear. If something is detected does it scramble and get close and look? Then it is in danger. I think you would be better off with a pair of cheaper GWSs or an orbiting SAMS that can see further and don't have to risk themselves away from the colony.

Repair makes the most sense to me. A freighter or an outpost has a critical systems failure and needs help or the crew is going to start dying. Then you need something to go out and provide quick help. More importantly you need it to be fast. This should be a rare situation though and a Repair PF already fits this niche.

I think it is more likely the place buys a PF base (since it needs the flushing systems) and buys non-standard PFs to meet its specific needs. One repair PF for rescue operations, a marine PF if it has to move troops a lot, and a cargo PF for routine runs. Getting all three of those would probably cost as much as one of these "do everything" models.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 12:13 pm: Edit

When creating a flagship fast patrol ship for planetary operations, keep in mind how fast patrol ships differ from normal ships.

(K0.11) PFs ARE SHIPS: For game purposes, PFs are considered to be ships of size class 5 with certain special rules noted here and elsewhere. Some examples include:
Limited mine detection range (M7.322).
Harder to find when hidden (D20.231).
Less effective than ships in tactical intelligence (D17.3).
Do not use energy balance due to damage (D22.0).

(K0.21) RANGE: PFs are very short-ranged due to their engines (K0.123). While they are as fast as starships, they cannot approach their range. (On the strategic map presented in Federation & Empire, a PF’s range is limited to a single hex while starships can travel several times that far.) Most PFs are towed by starships or operated from bases. An average mission lasts less than 48 hours.

(K0.22) HABITABILITY: Internal space is cramped, and the crews do not live on board except during missions. PF crews are normally on the order of twenty to 40 beings, most of which remain strapped into their acceleration couches during most of a mission. PFs do not have arti-ficial gravity, and the crew must remain in pressure suits during com-bat since the main life support system is shut down to save power.

(K1.12) ZERO COST SYSTEMS: PFs do not expend power for life support or fire control, except as noted below or in a unit description.
(K1.121) Ground assault PFs pay 1/5 point for life support when carrying troops because of the large number of personnel on board. Any PF carrying additional personnel for some reason would also pay this cost. Other cases might be provided as special scenario rules, e.g., a cargo PF might need life support for certain types of cargo.
(K1.122) The Klingon G-1N (R3.PF6) pays 1/5 point for life support due to the need to keep the senior officers comfortable.

One of the things that has been proposed for Module K2 is a "police gunboat" to provide local planetary/system law enforcement, and I can see a flotilla of such boats possibly including a "flagship" gunboat that (as the base line of the original proposal) provides capabilities similar to a police flagship to the "police force flotilla." Such police flotillas may have only four PFs (three enforcer/pursuit boats and the general service/flagship boat). They are not intended to take on "real pirate ships" but are adequate to deal with up to an Armed freighter or a Free Trader in the course of providing "Law and Order" in the system. The flag boat providing limited repairs, a faster (than a shuttle) means of moving a company of troops to an emergency in the system, and so on.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 03:22 pm: Edit

I wonder if all that is really needed is an update for the Operations base, (the one that has up to six skiffs like a modular courier, a security skiffs or two, one or two or three regular skiffs .)

Just add a (generalist gunboat) of what ever design makes sense, and it's done.

I guess I still do not see the need given that Skiffs are still produced in PF using empires. Having a PF based unit just adds more complexity to a mission role that admin shuttles, cargo shuttles, Skiffs have been doing for decades in Star Fleet History.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Mike West: -->>> Outside the Federation, gunboats are being produced and skiffs are not.

Can you please cite a source for that statement, because I would challenge it based on shear logic. skiffs have a mission that a PF / gunboat would be ill-suited for.


Steve Petrick: -->>> PFs do not have artificial gravity, and the crew must remain in pressure suits during com-bat since the main life support system is shut down to save power.

Given that Skiffs use PF/Interceptor rules for some things, would this statement apply to skiffs, too?? Personally, I would have thought not, but I suppose I can see that wearing of e-suits might apply.


Garth L. Getgen

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 04:25 pm: Edit

SPP,

If you combine this with police boats, I will be completely on board for the combination. Sign me up right now. That'd be awesome!

Honestly, while I didn't really realize it until you posted it, that is exactly what I would love to see. Seriously, where do I sign up? Can we have a preview in a CL?

Also, regarding any version of this flagship gunboat, I always intend for it to have the minesweeping capabilities of an (R1.PF4) mine warfare gunboat version. Just want that to be made clear.

Jeff and Garth,

R1.PF7. Among other places. The skiff production facilities were converted to make gunboats. This is like the entire reason workboats were even made in the first place.

I am actually quite surprised this is news to either of you.

NOTE1: Note that this doesn't mean skiffs just disappeared. There were tons already built and still operating. It's just that new production went down to zero or virtually zero.

NOTE2: Also, for anyone trying to claim skiffs were easier to maintain, please also read R1.PF7 in the Klingon section, too. That should help clarify things.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Just because some skiff production facilities were converted doesn't mean they all were. Also one advantage skiffs have over gunboats are their NWO boxes which make them more customizable than workboats which only come in a single cargo model. (It's curious that workboats don't have NWO boxes like skiffs, is there any reason they couldn't?)..