In the color text for the normal Romulan police flagship, there is a mention of the Klingons selling the Romulans a G4 police flagship in the Y160s to serve as an example.

As far as I can tell, this Romulan G4 (KG4?) is not in the game. Am I missing it somewhere?

If I am right about that, the conversion would be simple enough, change the drone rack to a plasma-D and the Security Stations to hull. Main question would be whether to upgrade the Phaser-2s to Phaser-1s.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 02:11 pm: Edit

John Sickels:

While an SSD could be done, given the normal pattern of converting the drone rack into a shuttle box (see D6 to KR, D7 to K7R, F5 to K5R, E4 to K4R) I would tend to doubt that the drone rack would be converted to a plasma-D rack. But that is without looking at the SSD.

Also, as the phaser-2s on the E4 to K4R conversion were not upgraded, it would seem unlikely they would be upgraded on this ship.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 03:08 pm: Edit

I was thinking that since the G4 already has an enlarged shuttle bay that the rack could be retained, however you are correct that the general KR pattern would indicate otherwise.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 04:49 pm: Edit

John Sickels:

Why I said I had not looked at the SSD. Placement of the rack could make absorbing it into the bay impossible, though I agree an extra shuttle would seem largely superfluous. Also, a case could be made that a plasma-D rack would add to its minesweeping ability, but I am not convinced that is a valid reason to have such a rack.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 - 07:09 pm: Edit

A look at the SSD for the Klingon G4 and the ship description says that its drone rack was part of the shuttle bay (a type-F rack) prior to the "B refit" (which started in Y165).

The service date for the Romulan Police Flagship (Y162) pre-dates the appearance of plasma-D racks (Y165) and the Klingon B refit. So if a "G4" was converted to a "KG4" as a way of showing the Romulans how to do the "FLG" it would not have a plasma-D rack, and it is more probable that the type-F drone rack was removed and an additional shuttle installed.

From that point one could ask if a refit might install a plasma-D rack, I consider this doubtful as I think it is almost universal that Klingon drone racks associated with shuttle bays (type-F drone racks prior to the B refit) are converted to extra shuttles and do not become plasma-D racks. This is off the top of my head and could be wrong, but someone would need to point out the ship that is the exception to this. The KD5 and KRC got plasma-D racks, but these did not replace drone racks associated with their shuttle bays, but anti-drone racks not associated with their shuttle bays.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 01:39 pm: Edit

It seems to me then that converting the drone to a shuttle makes the most sense in fitting with the history.

As for the phaser, given that this is a police flagship perhaps they would upgrade to Ph-1 despite the precedent set by the K4R, to make up the firepower loss from losing the drone. The normal Romulan police flagship has Ph-1s IIRC.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 02:23 pm: Edit

John Sickels:

Sure, the Romulan FLG has phaser-1s, but no Romulan Eagle or Hawk series ship has phaser-2s (off the top of my head) short a "hasty repair." And a lot of Klingon conversions (Kestrels) have phaser-2s and generally any refits do not upgrade all of the phaser-2s to phaser-1s (KRC to KRL, K5C to K5L and other exceptions, but the KR to KRB and K7R to K7B and K5R to K5B all still have rear phaser-2s). Given that the Romulans did not fit the FLG with a cloaking device, I doubt a KG4 would have a cloaking device, and if it does not have a cloaking device, why go to the bother of upgrading the phasers since they are perfectly adequate for minesweeping and the ship is not intended to engage in direct combat so upgrading to phaser-1s would be a waste.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 04:01 pm: Edit

If I may play "Devil's Advocate" in this thread, would the Romulans use this modified G4 in the role of Police Flagship, or would they use it as part of their equivalent to the DSF?

My reason for asking is twofold. First, they felt enough of a need for warp capable ships that they accepted antiquated Klingon ships converted to their technologies (the KD4 and KF4; R4.117 and R4.118, both in Module R8) for their fleet use.

Second, they have their Battlehawk-F Police Flagships. Would they feel the need to have a parallel class of Police Flagships, especially one that was built by a foreign power, and as such was subject to potentially having supplies (of spare parts, if nothing else) cut off.

Just my 0.002 Quatloos worth

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Fair enough, SPP.

To summarize, one ship, sold to the Romulans in Y161 as an example to help with the design of the Eagle-series FLG, change Security to Hull and Drone to shuttle, no cloak.

I suggest it was used by a police precinct near the Federation border and was destroyed while trying to defend a convoy during Operation Remus.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 04:05 pm: Edit

Jeffrey: the ship already exists according to the history, it just hasn't shown up in the game yet. The Romulans did use some police ships on G2 and E3 hulls acquired from the Klingons so the G4 fits into that.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Jeffrey George Anderson:

A little research, even within this topic of the discussion so far, would resolve many of your issues.

First, the Romulans purchased one (1) G4, apparently prior to Y162, see the ship description of the Romulan FLG (R4.120).

Second, they modeled their FLG on the Klingon G4, so the G4 was a "one off," they did not purchase more and simply used the mission design for how they would design their conversion of the Hawk destroyer to the role, which enters service in Y162 (other than the prototype exception, there were no FLGs in service prior to Y162. There is a reference that the Romulans may have been operating some kind of sublight police flagship prior to Y160, but their FLG is definitively tied to the Klingon G4 design.

So there was never a "parallel class of police flagships."

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 05:18 pm: Edit

John Sickels:

I would tend to say more thought should be put into its background.

It is a police ship. It is the only ship of its class (KG4). The Romulans came to "modern" police flagships late, and according to the ship description of the FLG (R4.120) never had enough to cover all of their (expanding) number of provinces.

The FLG (top speed of 29) works reasonably well with the Snipe-P (similar speed limits, i.e., top speed of 25 if burning the batteries). But the KG4 is faster with a top speed of 31 and can work with the KE3s, KG2s, and SeaHawks which can also make Speed 31.

During the General War, the provinces closer to the 'front line' are likely to have lots of "warships" and maybe as the guy in charge of the Police Forces you want to put your FLG assets further in the interior where there are fewer available warships to respond to Orion depredations (but that is still your responsibility).

You might look at the ship as your "cavalry." The ship is fast enough to move to an area where you need to put more emphasis, and does not need to be held back if traveling with Snipe-Ps, but can work with KE3s and KG2s.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 06:49 pm: Edit

SPP: My thinking was that the ship should be close to the Federation border since the Kestrel ships were concentrated in that area for supply reasons.

However, if the police and the Star Navy have different logistics chains, then that is less of an issue, especially since (I think) the KE3s and KG2s under police control were not necessarily concentrated in one area.

Perhaps then the KG4 was used in the capital area near Romulus and Remus. Perhaps it was under the direct operational control of the highest police headquarters, rather than a specific precinct. It could still be destroyed during Operation Remus of course.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - 07:32 pm: Edit

John Sickels:

It is largely established that in virtually all empires the "police" are separate from the regular star navy. (Obvious exceptions, the Orion Cartels, the Andromedans, the Jindarians, possible exceptions the WYN and the Tholians, note that while the Tholians have police ships, the ability of these "police" ships uniquely in the Alpha Octant to be part of a "battle group" calls this somewhat into question.) So there is a Romulan "High Police Commissioner" (or some other title) who is in charge of all Romulan "police units" (obviously excluding most planetary and system police). How does he look at the ship?

He might be a Romulan Traditionalist and dislike Klingon ships and so keep it as far away and out of sight as he can.

He might be a pragmatist and look at the ship for its capabilities (with the exception of its speed, it is quite inferior to the BattleHawk based FLG, i.e., weaker shields, fewer and mostly weaker weapons even if better able to fire to the rear to cover when the ship is running away, less available power, more susceptible to damage over all because of the weaker shields, lack of armor, and smaller size. So maybe he keeps it in the province less likely to have trouble, but the shortage of FLG class ships means he cannot really keep it in the home system.

Maybe his pragmatism (whether a pragmatist or a traditionalist) makes him keep the ship where it can most readily get K4 parts because the police have a lower priority on such spares and he uses what priority he has to keep the KE3s and KG2s operational.

Frankly, I would not keep the ship in the home (Romulus and Remus) province because it is a small province with plenty of fleet assets to keep the Orions honest. As noted, behind the fighting fronts also would seem to have enough fleet assets to handle any issues that came up (they may not "work for me" but I have the right to ask the fleet for support, and again there is that shortage of FLGs.

So it just seems to me to be more likely the ships is deployed somewhere in the South East of the empire, where the new provinces are opening up.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Sunday, October 20, 2019 - 03:31 pm: Edit

Fleshing this proposed background out, how about something along these lines.

After being purchased in Y162, the KG4 was originally deployed in the capital sector under direct command of the main Police headquarters while the Romulans were tutored by the Klingons regarding operation of modern police vessels.

As more Romulan-designed FLGs entered service, the KG4 was regarded as less capable than the home-built designs. It was transferred to the southern hinterlands of the Empire in Y166, where it supervised police operations and saw occasional duty as a convoy escort. It disappeared while en route to investigate a reported space monster sighting in Y176.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, October 26, 2019 - 06:45 am: Edit

I have to question which layer of government would choose to operate a unique police flagship when other police flagships of different designs (listed in the above posts) are in service.

Certainly the Imperial Government would not, it's not a prestigious command. nor do I see any particular diplomatic justification. I would doubt if the Klingons cared just who operated the only Romulan KG4.

It's even a stretch to consider any of the Major Houses exerting any "political Capital" to acquire the KG4... the other police FLG designs being adequate.

The only parties that would seem to have any interest, by default, would be any of the "Minor" houses fighting for scraps left oVer after the great and major houses have taken what they want.

Or a fallen house that once was great, but has lost the Romulan Imperial favor.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, October 26, 2019 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

That is like asking which state controls which coast guard cutter.

The Romulan house system results in the various houses engaging in political activities to try to maneuver members of their house into positions of authority and power in the National Government, but it does not change the fact that by and large the Navy/Fleet is owned and operated by the Empire and run by the imperial admiralty. The same situation would apply to the police. They are a separate arm from the Fleet with their own commands and prerogatives. So the houses may try to maneuver members into command of police flagships for the prestige and power (the ability to decide what will and will not be investigated in a given region for example).

The upshot is that the KG4 could be seen as a prestigious assignment that was a goal for the various houses to have "their man" command, and later when Hawk destroyers were converted for the job and were much more effective (if for no other reason than their larger size) the KG4 became a less prestigious and sought after assignment.

None of that changes that the ship belonged to the Romulan police, and not to any one House.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, October 26, 2019 - 06:00 pm: Edit

Deleted by author, too much of a tangent (Hawk versions)