Archive through October 08, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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R04: ROMULAN PROPOSALS:
KC6R Early Kestrel-Series Dreadnought:
Archive through October 08, 2019
In Star Fleet Battles terms, the KC9R Behemoth (R4.40) has a YIS date of Y172. Historically-speaking, the existence of this ship is tied to the arrival of Klingon Ambassador Thad Vak Kaleen on Romulus, as detailed in A Brief History of the General War.
However, in Federation and Empire terms, things are somewhat more nuanced. According to (704.212) in the Romulan order of battle, the hull itself was delivered (and mostly paid for) on Turn #6, or Spring Y171; with the ship activated (with the balance paid off) and entered into service on Turn #8, or Spring Y172. Which raises the question: if the Ambassador Extraordinaire was supposed to have leveraged this ship as an inducement towards getting the Romulans to join the Coalition, rather than either staying at home or attacking the Gorns in a separate war instead, exactly how much leverage would he have on that score if the Romulans were already in possession of the C9 base hull?
Hence this "KC6R" proposal. While the Romulans had learned much since the Treaty of Smarba, perhaps they might have found working with a "foreign" hull as large as a dreadnought to be more of a challenge than hitherto expected. To put it another way, perhaps the hull would have had to have been deployed as an equivalent to the Klingon C6 or Gorn DNE, barring a fresh team of Klingon engineering specialists to be sent to Romulus as part of the ambassador's "package deal" in Y172.
This could open up an alternate scenario in which the Romulans turn down the ambassador's offer - or perhaps never received it, in the event that his ship had been intercepted and forced back to Klingon space by the Federation (or Orions, Andromedans, or some random space monster). So the ship would either be sent into Gorn space in a KC6R configuration, or perhaps deployed to the Fleet of the West to help cover the Federation border even in the event of a strike against the Gorns.
Does this sound like enough of a wedge to make such an "obvious variant" worth doing, or might this be one Kestrel SSD too far at this juncutre?
Or... perhaps the Klingons did sell a C6 dreadnought hull to the Romulans earlier, and the inducement amounted to delivery of a second Dreadnought C9 hull and assistance to fully upgrade the C6 to the C9 standard?
We never find out what happened to the Behemoth, do we?
I mean, I don't remember any mentions of when it was destroyed. Was it around for the Romulan Civil War?
Sorry, I do not recall.
But if a C6 was delivered to the Romulans after the treaty of Smarba, it will need a cool name.
There is one potential killer problem I see with converting a C6 to Romulan technology. I've got R7 open to the C6 SSD right now and I'm thinking of how the D6 was converted to the original KR. Were I to do things the same way with this ship (which, given that it's "Me" imagining it, is probably WAY off 
), I think the results would be unacceptably poor (to say the least).
The biggest problem is the lack of Disruptors on the center warp engine; the location whose disruptors are replaced with the Plasma-R on the C9 conversion. Maybe it's just my (bad) way of looking at it, but the conservative conversion that I can picture leaves a Size Class 2 ship armed solely with two Plasma-G torpedoes as its heavy weapons.
Also, eight of her twelve Phasers are Phaser 2s. How many, if any, would be upgraded to Phaser 1s? I mean, neither the rear deck Phasers of the K5R nor the waist Phasers of the KR are upgraded.
However, I do know that the waist position Phasers of the C9 are upgraded to Phaser 1s on the K9R, so maybe that wasn't a good argument.
Also, the R7 rulebook does say that the surviving C6es were all eventually converted to C9 configuration, so this parallel is sensible.
I would point out that given the surviving C6s were all eventually upgraded to the C9 configuration it is more likely that Behemoth began life as a C6 and was upgraded to the C9 standard as part of the conversion. So Kaleen provided the upgrade path as the sweetener. So you might do a K6R to show where the Romulans were going before old Thad tempted them with the plans (doubtless shown in an impressive multimedia presentation) and the parts to do the conversion. I do not doubt that there were other inducements offered as part of the negotiations (but the hand of the emperor's oldest and most eligible daughter was not one of them, how could you even think such a thing!).
Rather than comparing this would-be KC6R to the KR, a better comparison might be with the K7R and KRC - each of which has room for a plasma-G and a plasma-F launcher per nacelle, and swaps out the plasma-Gs for plasma-Ss once the K7RB and KRL appears respectively. Which, in the case of the port and starboard nacelles on the KC6R and/or KC6RB, would still keep the ship in the same broad category as the Gorn or ISC DNEs, at least in terms of plasma throw-weight.
Also, it might be worth noting that this design could perhaps be of use in one of the Paravian timelines from SFB Module C6, should a version of the Treaty of Smarba in said timeline enable the Romulans to acquire the hull earlier.
I asked for a KC6R for when we did the FC Middle Years module. I really wanted that Kestrel dreadnought. But Petrick dismissed it out of hand.
While too late for what I wanted it for, I am glad to see it considered again.
For what (little) it's worth, this proposed "Day of the Condor" scenario for Federation and Empire is one motivation behind my posting the KC6R concept at this time; the idea being that, in such an alternate setup, the Romulans might have to make do without the upgrade path provided by the Ambassador, at least for a few more years.
One could perhaps set a date (or rather, an F&E turn) by which the Romulans might figure out how to upgrade the ship by themselves, if the Klingons did not manage to get the Ambassador over to Romulus at some point before then.
Or to put it another way, there are rules in F&E which state that the Feds may go to Limited War to support the Gorns should they be invaded by the Romulans, and at what later stage a state of Full War may be triggered. My thinking was that, so long as a state of Limited War was in play, the Romulans would be less receptive to joining the Coalition, as it would simply distract from their invasion of the Gorns. Yet once a state of Full War is triggered, the concept of a "separate war" would be moot, making it more likely that the Ambassador might be able to negotiate a formal arrangment.
That is, if his diplomatic cruiser can somehow make it through the Federation blockade the second time around...
Mike West:
Honestly, I do not remember the earlier submission. If I said "no" (which I am not denying) it probably means supporting data that seemed to make it feasible was missing. I suspect the earlier proposal did not point to the delivery data on the Behemoth, and more importantly that C6s get upgraded to C9s, which seems to me to open the path.
That's fine. Nothing really negative meant by my comment, just that it was discarded. And, at the time, I was focused on the FC application, so I doubt it had any supporting data outside the need for it to be in SFB before it could be used in FC.
But, again, regardless of how it gets done, I'd like to see it done. While too late for inclusion in Briefing #2, just getting it done at all will allow for at least Communique or CL or something.
For the record, I have always assumed it would use the same heavy weapons as the KRC. (Leaving the center engine empty of weapons since the C6's center weapon is empty of weapons.)
Mike West:
It is also probable that I read the earlier proposal as simply adding another dreadnought hull to the Romulan Order of Battle at the start of their entry into the General War, and even if it has a lower attack factor (for the lack of the Plasma-R-FA) that is just not something I could support. The Star Fleet Universe has a lot of inter-related parts, and things added to Star Fleet Battles have to bee looked at in light of Federation & Empire, and a dreadnought, even if it is 10-12 instead of a 12 (K9R may have a higher attack value, this is off the top of my head that a lot of DNs were 12s) it allows the Romulans to assemble another 12 ship battle force for a round of battle, could see another Federation Border Battle Station blown up on the first turn of Romulan involvement and have other effects on balance. But if it is just an addition to the history of the Behemoth, i.e., the same ship at an earlier point in its conversion that is to say what the Romulans would have had if they attacked the Federation earlier or refused the Klingon offer and attacked the Gorns, I do not see any harm.
What about a KC4B?
The Klingons could have transferred one of these hulls as part of the D4/F4 package, to help the Romulans gain experience with tactical warp DNs.
To avoid F&E complications, perhaps the ship was expensive to operate and was scrapped before the General War began.
Romulans seldom seem to scrap anything.
The cost of upgrading a KC4B might be too expensive to actually complete.
Plus, there is no way to know if the KC4B CAN be refitted to the KC6 or KC9 standard.
You can always say the ship was destroyed prior to the General War.
The Klingon C4B cannot be upgraded to C6 standards. That's already established in the background. So, no, a possible KC4B can't be upgraded beyond the initial conversion to Romulan tech, any more than KD4 could be updated to KR.
Peanut gallery comment, worth less than the 0.002 Quatloos...
"Historical Note: The Romulan KC4R, the Flagship gift of friendship from the Klingon Empire to their friends the Romulans in honor of the Treaty of Smarba, sadly never got the chance to fight on behalf of its new owners.
"For years, she served as a Flagship for the Romulan Emperor until replaced with an even more astounding gift, the C6, herself converted to use Romulan technology and updated to become the legendary K9R.
"The beloved KC4R enjoyed further service as the Officer's Training Vessel of the Romulan Imperial Naval Academy, helping to shape the men and women who lead the Imperial Navy.
"Sadly, her one opportunity for glory was lost in the Federation attack on Romulus. Her great age had been showing by that time and she was in the special drydock off Romulus when the Federation CVA attack took place, and was lost in the devastation that rendered the world uninhabitable."
(Okay, maybe it's generous to say 0.002 Quatloos. Perhaps 0.0000000002 Quatloos would be better... )
1.) As noted, I cannot agree to adding a dreadnought to the Romulan at start Order of Battle, not even a weak one.
2.) We already have a Vulture hanging around as a training ship, we do not need a second dreadnought for that function.
From an F&E perspective, I must also concur with SPP as adding another command ship the the starting Romulan fleet eases this early war issue for them.
SPP,
My mistake was likely calling it conjectural. I would never have suggested adding anything major like that to the order of battle.
I do like it as the original form of the Behemoth. I would very much like to see that done.
In theory, if the Behemoth started Romulan Service as a KC6R it would be closer to the Romulans knowledge base as they adopted warp technology after the treaty of Smarba.
The conversion to the K9R standard would reflect the "leaning process" as the Romulans "got up to speed" with the rest of the quadrant in mastering warp technology.
If it was an earlier delivery of the Behemoth it might mess with the Romulan rules in F&E about buying it.
Jon Murdock:
As I look at the rules, it does not create a problem for the K9R to begin life as a C6 hull on the delivery date, and be completed and ready for combat as a C9 when conversion is completed. As the original poster noted:
"According to (704.212) in the Romulan order of battle, the hull itself was delivered (and mostly paid for) on Turn #6, or Spring Y171; with the ship activated (with the balance paid off) and entered into service on Turn #8, or Spring Y172."
So it can arrive as a C6 on Turn #6, and on Turn #8 it is launched as a K9R having completed conversion. But on Turn #7 it might have been available as a K6R, and might have gone to war in that configuration if Kaleen had not arrived with the deal to upgrade it.
So the KC6R becomes an "unbuilt variant" (or, one could argue, an "unbuilt base hull") instead of "conjectural". If that's what it takes to get it done, I'm on board.
PS. If this does get done, thank you Gary for finding the loophole through which to push it.
SPP:
Apologies, I misunderstood. I thought it would be a pre-General War delivery in the interwar period.
You could even have a variant rule in F&E to keep the base hull and keep back the second part of the payment for other uses.....though I cannot see anyone doing it.