Wayne Douglas Power:

There is more to things than simply a ship design. One of the problems with (for example) an old freighter with a stack of Skids to make a "guard ship" (as opposed to an armed auxiliary cruiser) is the capability of the planet to perform maintenance and repairs. Same would go if you were trying to use a Cutter for the job. The colony in question needs to have at least reached the point where it has deployed (usually means it bought it and a freighter delivered it) a Commercial Platform. You need a place to dock the ship for maintenance and repairs and fueling.

Again you have to take into account the evolution of a colony.

Skiffs are part of the evolution, granting a colony more control over its own space and the ability spread out in its system.

Police gunboats are simply moving into that niche as a part of the evolution in the General War that saw many (non-Federation) production facilities switch over to gunboats from Skiffs.

Operating from a planetary surface is part of the growth and evolution of a colony. Part of having a "true space force" for security is building the infrastructure to support ships that cannot be serviced or repaired on the surface of the planet. And sure, the first step is being able to operate your own shuttles to do the jobs, but Skiffs (and police gunboats) are better for policing than shuttles, so when you can afford it you go there as the interim step to having "guard ships."

Now, sure, a colony established by a larger government to exploit a commodity of immediate great value (like the infamous dilithium crystal) might see the central government providing auxiliary cruisers (if it was not a rich enough strike to be worth deploying a monitor and then a base/battle station) even if there are no other "orbital systems." And bear the costs of rotating auxiliary cruisers (and other local defense ships) in and out of the system (maintenance and repairs are still logistically needed).

But most colonies will be established, eventually operate shuttles, then Skiffs/gunboats, then some kind of freighter/cutter defense fleet.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 08:16 am: Edit

In rereading this topic, I am reminded that we are kind of "stymied" in defining a colony's ability to afford various items (Defense sats, operations bases, skiffs, these prospective police gun Boat thingys etc.)

SPP in an above post questioned the utility/value of linking defenses solely on population. (My understanding of what SPP wrote, if I am in error, I expect SPP can clarify.)

The problem (as I see it, anyway), is traditionally in Star Fleet Battles, defenses are defined in scenarios. This puts the assessment of local planetary defenses into a combat context.

What we lack is a rules basis for defining just what level of defenses are appropriate for any given colony.

And this is not something that can be resolved by a simple chart or table indexed by population.

Other factors include economic (are there active mining operations present? Agriculture to grow food for miners in near by locations that can't grow thier own food? Is there a science base or out post present? Is the location strategically important for some reason?, cultural, societal? Diplomatic?

Until we have some kind of "yard stick", we are left guessing at just how much (in terms of bpvs) a colony can afford to spend on defenses.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 09:19 am: Edit

I think that would require a lot more defining of the economics and such of a colony than is really warranted in a game of STARSHIP COMBAT.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 09:54 am: Edit

Every colony is different. There are 50 states around here somewhere and no two can agree on how much to spend per mile of highway, per Medicaid user, per state park, or per state legislator office supply budget.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 09:58 am: Edit

Your last comment gave me a smile, Richard. One of my best friends, in fact, the guy who's shot more Barber's Chairs out from under me than EVERYone else, often says something very similar when I share SFU story ideas with him.

(When I shared the story that SVC published as "The Business of Being Here," my friend's exact quote was, "SFB is a game of space COMBAT, not a game of 'Space Peaceful Negotiations!!'"

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 10:38 am: Edit

All of these points are true to a lessor or greater extent.

I wonder if a simple "rule of thumb" standard might work (if properly modified....)

For example. If a home run campaign designer needs to populate number of near by "useful" locations for a gaming session or campaign, why not provide some limited options?

The structure in each case would require answering six general questions: who, what, why, when, where and how.

Then just a set series of die six rolls to determine the answers to the six w and h questions above.

If a single die six is too random, then the alternative being 2d6 with a result of 7 defaults to " no defenses present." And the other results indicate a progressive number of bpvs to be spent on defenses.

Just a thought.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 12:42 pm: Edit

For the record, I still would like to see some form of the police flagship gunboat and/or generalist gunboat.

By Jay gustafson (Jay13) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 10:58 pm: Edit

How about a science gunboat

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Sunday, November 03, 2019 - 11:17 pm: Edit

Jay, Module R12 gave us PFQs; Survey Gunboats. They have one or two Probe launchers (albeit with only three probes per launcher), Special Sensors, and a small number of labs.

(Personally? I LOVE `em!)

By Jay gustafson (Jay13) on Monday, November 04, 2019 - 10:43 am: Edit

Medical gunboat

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Monday, November 04, 2019 - 11:21 am: Edit

Isn't that an oxymoron?

What role is the Medical GUNboat serving?

Mobile hospital? IMO, having LAB as the NWO on a Seeker Skiff might be a good option.

Medical evacuation? Either the cargo gunboat or the Commando version would work.

Experiments that are an affrontery to Natural Law? I think that should be COMPLETELY outside the SFU (even by Andromedans).

By Jay gustafson (Jay13) on Monday, November 04, 2019 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Take the gun out of it medical patrol ship.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Monday, November 04, 2019 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Wouldn't this be better as a skiff without the engines burning out problem?

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, November 04, 2019 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Dunno. I think there should jst be a generic PF/ Workboat that has 2 or 3 NWO and stripped of weapons (maybe a single P3).

So a medical version might have 2 labs and a transporter with 2 extra crew (the medical people)

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 10:17 am: Edit

Make it a Search & Rescue (SAR) boat, which would have weapons.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 10:32 am: Edit

The standard Seeker Skiff has two NWO boxes. With these configured as LAB (plus adding the requisite crewmembers), given that she already has the Transporter, she fills the requirements you have for the Medical Workboat.

If you're looking for even MORE versatility, she also has two Cargo. Perhaps the Cargo can be configured for "Limited NWO Options," such as "Cargo, Hull, or Barracks Only"?

As far as modifying one of the Workboats for this sort of configuration, I'm starting to get images in my mind of a Workboat with the extra features that are aboard Gunboat Leaders; the Tractor and Transporter, plus I'm picturing the four Cargo (which I think is standard for Workboats) "Upgraded" to two NWOs and two Cargo (with, in my alleged mind, the option of being the aforementioned "Limited NWOs").

Now, if I'm starting seeing things, perhaps I ought to check my meds to see if that's a troublesome side effect...

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, November 05, 2019 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Workboats already have a tractor (with mech link) and transporter.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 12:03 am: Edit

Looks like we have people suggesting designs (skiff and PF types) without bothering to define the mission.


The Mission remains the needs of various sized colonies for security. Different colonies all need security, but have many different means to fulfill the mission.

These units run the full spectrum from admin shuttles only thru various skiff designs, and for non Federation worlds, the ability to use gun boats and work boats, and eventually, (when the colony is wealthy enough) regular police ships or other auxiliary warships.

What needs to be answered, is just what does a generalist police gun Boat give you that skiffs, shuttles, auxiliary warships can't or don't.

By Michael Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 06:10 pm: Edit

A "Police Gun Boat" gives you an available replacement for when a Skiff finally falls apart from overuse/ old age/ is destroyed, and they are no longer making replacement skiffs.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, November 06, 2019 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Mike, true enough for all empires except the Federation.

Infact, the Federation introduced a new version skiff in the Slammer, IIRC.

And there is an argument that skiffs would still be in demand at non Federation empires colonies that can not afford gun boat /PFs.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 04:03 pm: Edit

There is a truth that while workboats may have temporarily displaced skiffs in most empires, skiffs would return simply because they can do things that workboats cannot. Most significantly they have better life support.

Remember that workboats are conversions of gunboats which were not designed for 'shirt sleeve' life support. Converting them to workboats gets you a unit with one (1) crew unit. Skiffs were designed for longer term operations and have three (3) crew units. So Skiffs would reappear. Eventually what amounts to "X-Skiffs" would appear, but only when X-Technology has reached a point where it is considered normal technology, and it just does not make sense to build a ship with the "old battery" or the "old fire control." And they will remain quite capable of shepherding freighters (even "X-Freighters" which will appear for the same reason, i.e., the X-technology has become common).

So just as Sails gave way to Steam Engines which then gave way to diesels, the sublight skiff gave way to the warp powered skiff which will give way to the X-Skiff.

Just do not imagine a swarm of X-skiffs taking out an advanced technology raider.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 07:15 pm: Edit

GRIN

I'll imagine what I want too.

GRIN

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, November 07, 2019 - 10:14 pm: Edit

AND there is no law (or rule...) that says a Skiff captain can't get lucky enough to take out an advanced technology raider under the right (or wrong!) conditions!

Is there any reason one can not have a Legendary Skiff Captain?!?

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Friday, November 08, 2019 - 10:38 am: Edit

It is probably like that small freighter in a campaign I played in that rolled up a full crew of one of each kind of Legendary Officer. You need fortuitous circumstances for that to help....or a good bluff roll.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Friday, November 08, 2019 - 11:41 am: Edit

Before I was on the chatboards, I had an email conversation with our Hosts regarding a Legendary Science Officer who, while assigned to a BatS, wanted to accompany the Gunboat Flotilla, aboard the PFS, where his "Special Talent" of serving as a couple LAB boxes would have helped the flotilla analyze a wandering monster.

The idea was rightly shot down.

Now, skiffs and gunboats are different animals, but in all seriousness, what government* would be willing to allow, say, a Legendary Weapons Officer to be aboard a ship that only had a single Phaser-3 as its armament? That's a REAL waste of talent.

(* NO! NO!! NO!!! We will NOT go back down that `Gator feeding route!!!)