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Archive through May 01, 2003

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2 disruptors: Archive through May 01, 2003

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 08:14 pm: Edit

They would at least have to be using the heavy disruptors.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 09:44 pm: Edit

Quote:
I don't see how, though. Compare the old DX to what you've described. It had six disruptors, and was expected to compete against 1X Fed ships with 12 point fast loads, and nothing more. Now, we're talking about Feds with 16 point fastloads and 24 point overloads, and you think that cutting the Klingons disruptors down by a third and giving them no improvement is going to allow them to compete? How? Not trying to argue, but I don't see that as possible.

Okay...are you talking about crunch power!?!

I think perhaps you are but I'll pretend you are not to start with.

Four +2 UIM diruptors in a Range 8 attack will inflict 24 points of damage.
Four 12 point Fastloads will inflict 24 points of damage in a range 12 oblique.
If we say that the Fed will be almost always willing of fastloads then he;ll be running around with inflicting 32 points of damage at range 12.

The Klingon with an X2E-rack and X2B-racks will be more likely to have an ECM drone so the Photons will be less likely to be effective....even if she loads up dogfight drones in her X2E-racks for defense against Fed drones she still has those spaces of drones counted as spaces of drones which give her B-racks some pretty high rates of limited and restricted drones.

If the Klingons get the Ph-5 refit in the boom then she will start inflicting 5.33 points she will not be inflicting 0.66 points of damage more in a perfect oblique, she'll be inflicting 6.0 points of more damage in a perfect oblique than the Fed.

Then there is the question of cunch power.

The Feds can crunch power four 24 point photons at the Klingon....it sounds better than it is.
Now the Klingons on the turn of attack do not need to thunder down range on the enemy because the enemy ( The Feds ) will do half of the work for them....they just need to go a little bit faster than the Feds to keep control of the situation.
In the turn of attack therefore the Klingon only needs to arm his photons...and they'll cost him 4 points each and he has 4 for 16 total power...the fed if he is building 24 point warheads under the rules as I think they'll probably be, will need to be putting 6-8 points of power per tube on the turn of attack and is therefore looking at 24 to 32 power being dumped into the Phot-torps and thus will be moving a lot slower. Although the Fed is far more likely to be deploying 6 points on the turn of attack than 8 points per turbe.

On the Off Turn this means the Klingon has an opponent who is spending between 4 and 6 but much more likely 6 points of warp on Photons which actually leaves the ship with a battle speed of about 25.
The Klingon on the other hand has CAPS and therefore on the off turn doesn't need to plug power in the Disruptors and can direct all 48 power to other system ( if we are stuck at speed 32 ) so 40 Warp and 1 impulse to move at speed 32 and 8 warp for EW and we still haven't cut into the AWR and mojority of the Impulse.
So we can say that the Fed probably gets hammered for a second volloy of andother 32 points of disruptor fire plus in a general oblique ( I desides not to have two perfect obliques in a row as it hard to remain beleivable) the Klingon will dish up ( probably against the Fed rear sheilds ) some 8Ph-1 shots for 17.33 points of phaser damage against the four Ph-5s that can be brought into the rear of the unrefitted Fed XCA which could only generate 14 points of damage.

Then there are the defensive measures.
Assuming no BTTY refit and Caps-to-SSReo and 5 boxes stronger shields on the rear sheilds of each ship and 10 boxes stronger on thwe forward shields.
The Klingon will dish up on it's off turn against a rear sheild some 41.33 points of damage not counting drone effects which must be deal with or else it will be internal damage.
If the Fed uses some of his Caps-To-SSReo then he has some ( assuming they were filled this turn ( the off turn ) 24 points to direct into SSReo and then from his 5 BTTY he can direct 3 points each for a final of only 2.33 points of sheild damage...but he probably shouldn't do all of that because he'll need the power nex turn.

On the Turn of attack the Klingon can generate with those R8 +2UIM Disruptors and perfect phasre oblique 46.66 points of damage against a 50 box shiled...but the Fed is likely to have no BTTY and epmpty Caps.

In return the Fed XCA delivers up 48 points of Photon damage and further 21 points of Phaser damage.

The Klingon will have ( assuming he has refilled his Caps with AWR and Impulse power ) five 3 point BTTYs and Caps to SSReo and can thus take (I should subtracts out the 10 points for the caps used this turn ) 29 stopped with instantainious Reo and thus takes a further 40 points of damage against his 50 box sheild.

Final result ( and this is why X2 ships will fight each other at closer ranges than they will X1s and GWs ) shield #3 or #5 takes 2.33 points of damage for the Fed and Sheild #2 or #6 takes 46.66 leaving him with 3.33 sheild boxes.
The Klingon just takes damage to the #2 or #6 shield leaving the Klingon with 10 boxes.

Crunch power in the case of X2 ships ( because they have such great DF defenses ) will be less important than one would assume.
Crunch power can be offset by hitting the same shield several times and can be offset by the Klingon dance around at longer ranges until such time as the Fed spits out his torps and then the Klingon can rush in and smash the sheilds with full overloads ( BTTYs help ) and a forrest of short range Ph-5s which start to get considerably more effect at R5 ( or R4 depending on how perfect the oblique is ) in comparison to the Ph-5s.

Now the Fed should have taken more rear sheild damage and saved some BTTY for the attack and should but the point is this.
The Klingon can compete with the Fed even with only four +2UIM Disruptors...it just will have a tough time of it...and therefore be a little bit cheaper.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Heavy disruptors.
6 Heavy Disruptors in my view is far too much...(particularly with Caps).
40 points on the On turn plus 16 on the off is 56 points of damage visiting no close than R8, whilst the Fed Photons are dishing back 48...this witht he Klingons having a drone advatage.
And caps will greatly increase the chances of that jumping up to 40 + 40....this with the Klingons retaining a higher perentage of Phasers after a mizia.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 03:31 pm: Edit

So are you saying, then, that capacitors for a disruptor race are enough of an improvement? I can see that, depending on how the rest of the ship is designed to fight. Not sure I'd pick that for the Klingons, but it's worth trying. How many points the capacitor holds is another consideration, as well.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Here is what was goning on before. The heavy disruptor had a base six damage. A moderate increase. It also had Caps. IIRC it was a two point cap. (effectivly resulting in a holdable disruptor for no power cost). The cap was to the side of the disruptor so it could be used to arm the disruptor or set to the side while the disruptor was armed normally during EA. The cap. could then be used to Over Load its disruptor. A normally armed disruptor with it cap full had to discharge or fire (still leaving the energy in the cap).

That the state of the Heavy Disruptor as I saw it before. When I did some compairisons with the Photon, DC, and Plasmas, I felt the Heavy Disruptor was a little lacking. Making it do more damage was too much. So I figured that the systems it already has could be the subject of advancement and fully integrated into the Heavy disruptor systems. So each disruptor has its own mini UIM and DERFACS resulting in a combined chart I proposed above.

With this system there is no need for separate DERFACS and UIM rows because the UIM wont burn out (already a X1 thing) and neither the DERFACS or UIM can be hit and run (you have to H&R the whole Disruptor to accomplish that.)

There is a game value to it as well in that there is a simpler chart. Always a plus.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 05:00 pm: Edit

I can live with:

Base damage of six
Integrated UIM and DERFACS
2 point capacitor system

All this assumes that the 2X cruiser (take your pick of race) starts with four of these, and possibly graduates to more after Y215.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Well, I intend the Klingons to have the XCC (thier best) which will have four forward and two RA. But the Medium Cruiser (basically a full cruiser, same hull class and MC but less robust) will only have four.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 07:30 pm: Edit

No offense, but what is the fascination with RA weapons?

Don't you guys like having unified alpha strikes?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 07:54 pm: Edit

Sorry, it's not supposed to be RA it's RH. The forward Disruptors are FH. On the Oblique it can get all six in arc if it lines you up just right.

The hull design is radically different too. THe engines are swept forward. I have a three view graphic I did that illustrates the new look. From the front or rear it looks the same. From the side and top (and bottom) it look very different.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 08:05 pm: Edit

Part of it, John, IIRC, was that way back when I put up that first Klingon SSD, it had two RH disruptors. I had put 'em there thinking that they could be useful after an overrun, giving the Klingon a shot after he did a battle pass. Don't know for sure if that's why Loren kept them that way, but it might have something to do with it.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Loren,

Consider another 15-20 degrees of sweep-forward to break up the straight-line effect.

Mike,
I can see that. I thought it might be a Franchise Trek thing, since they seem to love rear-arc weapons.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 10:14 pm: Edit

Well, it's a balance think too. I didn't want to see the Klingon get six heavy disruptors up front but four was not enough. Then Mike showed me his SSD and it clicked. Six disruptors is a lot so you should have to work to get them all in at once. However, there are other things you can do with that. They are also a deterent from following. It just a lot of work to fight off this guy from every angle.

Remember, though, this is the big boy flagship class. The CM wont have the rear firing Disruptors.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 10:16 pm: Edit

It's probably going to be a while before I present my X2 proposal. I looking at late summer when I create a web site and put up the whole kit and kaboodle.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 10:32 pm: Edit

Quote:
So are you saying, then, that capacitors for a disruptor race are enough of an improvement? I can see that, depending on how the rest of the ship is designed to fight. Not sure I'd pick that for the Klingons, but it's worth trying. How many points the capacitor holds is another consideration, as well.

Well I have a hunch that it might be...in so far as it'll mean that the Disruptor user is very capable of going to R8 even on turns the opponent doesn't want R8....although if the opponent trries hard enough he can make sure it won't happen by not arming his own weapons.

Also linking the caps to the Phaser Caps will make the ship quite power both in longer phaser firing and longer disruptor firing...and having tougher Caps-to-SSReo.
Whether or not the ability to do turn turns worth of R8 fire is enough or whether one needs the ability to focus that damage on the same sheild is going to critical to the final out come may cause an extra damage bonus to be needed.

Personnally I think +2UIM and +2Defracs is that slight increase ( it's about the same increase as the heavy disruptor but limited in the number of range brackets that increase is applied to ) that's need to couple with the higher off turn attack speed that we are looking for.

One of the reason I don't like the heavy Disruptor is R0 knief fights.
With 16 point fasloads the Fed is dishing out 64 damage and the Klingon and her 6 heavy disruptors is dishing out 72 and I think that's a bad move...but some people might see the four R0 Heavy disruptors dishing up 48 points of damage ( what the ld R0 X1 Fed fastloads were doing ) as beeing a good value against the Fed 64 Point Photons, particularly with respect that 12Ph-1s will do a lot more damage at R0 than 8Ph-6s.

Quote:
UIM rows because the UIM wont burn out (already a X1 thing)

I'm not sure what thing means in America but I think you're thinking of the removal of the UIM 32 impulse penalty, rather than the UIM burn out which does occour on an X1 UIM on a roll of 1.
Please...let's be really careful about what we say X1 can already do.

Quote:
I can live with:

Base damage of six
Integrated UIM and DERFACS
2 point capacitor system

All this assumes that the 2X cruiser (take your pick of race) starts with four of these, and possibly graduates to more after Y215.

Note the Disruptor cannon should be a little weak as it's not actually the primary heavy weapon of the Kzinti.

Personnally I'ld rather have the 4 Point Cap that gets increase to 6. Having a two point Cap is delibreately designed to reduce off turn chase down ability, and that'll be a bad thing...still if you can reverse flow from the phaser caps to the Disruptor cap then you'll be able to have afaily high off turn chase down speed for many turns...and five 3 Point BTTYs makes the Klingon very fast aswell.
Sitll...I'm at:-
1) 4 Point Caps.
2) +2 UIM & +2 Defracs.
3) 6 Impulse turn break double broadside penalty.

Quote:
Well, I intend the Klingons to have the XCC (thier best) which will have four forward and two RA. But the Medium Cruiser (basically a full cruiser, same hull class and MC but less robust) will only have four.

That doesn't really Grab me.
Are forward Disruptors FH+L and FH+R?...if so I can see where you are getting at...but don't really like because it doesn't feel Klingon to me.
It Feels Jindo!

Quote:
Sorry, it's not supposed to be RA it's RH. The forward Disruptors are FH. On the Oblique it can get all six in arc if it lines you up just right.

That's not an oblique, It's a Perfect Broadside!!!
You want FA and RX to really get the Oblique to work...or FH & RX or FX & RX

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 10:40 pm: Edit

Quote:
Well, it's a balance think too. I didn't want to see the Klingon get six heavy disruptors up front but four was not enough. Then Mike showed me his SSD and it clicked. Six disruptors is a lot so you should have to work to get them all in at once. However, there are other things you can do with that. They are also a deterent from following. It just a lot of work to fight off this guy from every angle.

Six heavy Disruptors is pretty good when dealing with Four 24 point Photons.
It's pretty balanced although a little better IMO on account of the effects of the CAPs but still not so much ahead of the fed that it woun't work.
The thing is...do we want Fed ships that are cheaper than the Klingons?...If it's just the XCC then that's okay...I don't know what well do to the Fed XCC to make it better than the XCA (Probably get trios of LS and RS Ph-6s rather than pairs or mayby the full 4FH Ph-5s instead of just 2...but certainly not both...that'ld be the fully refitted XCA.)

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 05:14 pm: Edit

How about the X2 disruptor, a more accurate weapon than the photon, gains some EW resistance by converting to a 2d6 to-hit system?

Mike, could you whip up a disruptor chart that includes built in UIM/DERFACS but converts to-hits to a 2-12 die roll? I'm thinking:

Range: To-Hit
0: 12
1-2: 11
3-4: 10
5-8: 9
9-22: 8
23-30: 7
31-40: 6

For simplicity I would give the standard load and overload charts the same to-hit.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Tos: I'd like to point out that converting straight over to 2D6 skews the average to the middle. Scoring a ten or less, for instance, is only slightly better than a 7. Conversely, a two (on 2D6) is much harder to attain than a 1 (on 1D6). So at range 23-30 you would have a better than 50% chance to hit.

And your 31-40 chances are way better than the typical 1-2 to hit.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 06:02 pm: Edit

Tos,

I can, and will if you like. However, there was considerable resistance to that same idea for photons, and I imagine you'd see it with disruptors, as well. But, I'll do it and send it ya.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Ya know what, I stand very corrected. I was still thinking about that Disruptor Cannon thing, which I do not like.

The X2 integrated Disruptor that is on Mikes SSD sound fine and dandy to me.

I don;t think they should have 6 Disr to 4 phot though, as the chance to hit is SUBSTANTIALLY better, now that there is no chance of lossing the UIM/DERFACS.

Perahps 5.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 07:59 pm: Edit

That's sort of how I look at it, too, Chris. I can see adding the extra two VERY late, as a post-Xork refit...but only to the XBC, which would mean very, very few of them would have it. Might not be necessary, but that's the way I'm leaning right now.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 08:48 pm: Edit

Quote:
If photons get 24-point max OLs, give the Klingons 6 of these things for balance.

That would be my thinking.
The Base 6 instead of 5 isn't so much of an improvment that the Four can stay even during the Xork invasion.
But 4 of the things is pretty competative even if 6 probably just tops out at being better than the Photon.

Quote:
So what? You had that exact scenario in X1...in fact, it was worse because the klingon had six disruptors instead of four. The fact remains, that a disruptor has damage reduction over range. Saying that any damage increase to a disruptor somehow magically makes it a photon is pointless. They don't act the same way at all.

That's not exactly true...consider the Fastload R15 limit or the Proximity fuse settings...and that's before we talk about decreasing average damage due to dropping to hit numbers.

Quote:
On the surface the heavy disruptor appears to be a very modest improvement but it isn't. It quite substantial in the aditional advantages it gains.

I'v said before that a +2UIM_+2Defracs and a Disruptor Cap is all that's need to make the four disruptors work as a fairly good X2 weapon and six max out as the equal of the Four 24 Point photons...remember we won't be getting four 24 point photons all the time because they are quite restrictive to build ( having an arming of (4-6+8-6 with only 6+6 being able to be held )...quite frankly, if there weas no intrwoven UIM or Defracs and the six Heavy Disruptors got a +2 UIM and +2 Defracs they'ld beat the 24 point Photons hands down so lets not go for anything beyond a modest imrpovement ( 6 is a lot of disruptor fire power ).

Range	To-Hit	Percentage	Old Percentage
0	12	100%	100%
1-2	11	97%	83%
3-4	10	91%	66%
5-8	9	83%	66% (83% W-UIM)
9-22	8	72%	66% (W-UIM)
23-30	7	58%	50%
31-40	6	41%	33%

The trouble with going to a 2D6 set of number is offset EW is you either rub out the chance of getting any good hit at long range ( 2 or less on 2D6 doesn't come up a fifth as often as a 1 or less on 1D6 ) or you wind up increasing the percentage chance to hit by too much ( See R8 where you are missing 1/12 of the time instead of 1/6 ).

I'ld rather keep it as 1D6....I'ld rather make any kind of chance to the basic table than use 2D6.
We don't need an EW offsetting ability to the Disruptor...it's already shytes on the photon from a very great height, we don't need to remove the only hope the Feds, have...that an ECM drone might be able to make it 3 Vs 4 instead of 3 Vs 5.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 09:38 pm: Edit

Just to be clear, in my proposal only one ship gets six H-Disr. The cream of the crop, top of the line Klingon XCC. There is a class below it that is the XCM. This too is a heavy cruiser with four H-Disr. and nearly the same phaser suite. I expect the K-XCC to be slightly more BPV than the Fed XCC (though mine is pretty tough) and the K-XCM to be slightly less.

My Lyran has only four H-Disr. (+4 ESG which includes the EW-ESG function).

THe Kzinti will have 4 DC. The Tholian...Hmmm, that's a secret for now.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 09:57 pm: Edit

That's a pitty.

I'ld like to see a whole mess of Klingons ships.

I'm sure the X2 D7D would go for the full 6...unlike the D6S analog.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 11:02 pm: Edit

Oh, they will have several. The thing is that the Klingons, unlike other races, will have their big Command cruiser be a unique hull. The mainline cruiser is a different hull. The Fed will hace a XCC and a XCL (and of course all the other smaller hulls).

The story will be, I think, that the Klingons wanted to have the best XCC in the quadrant. They had to choose between two types. One was great but expensive. The other quite capable and fitting the budget. They build both with the former in far fewer quanities. They could have built Three XCM for every two XCC but given the era and other factors it was determined to be the correct choice. The Klingons really wanted something that would be a force to be reckoned with.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 11:06 pm: Edit

Range To-Hit Percentage Old Percentage
0 12 100% 100%
1-2 11 97% 83%
3-4 10 91% 83%
5-8 9 83% 83%
9-22 8 72% 66%
23-30 7 58% 50%
31-40 6 41% 33%

Put another way:
0 +0%
1-2 +14%
3-4 +8%
5-8 +0%
9-22 +6%
23-30 +8%
31-40 +8%

This was as close as I could get to 1d6 while keeping the odds of a hit equal or greater than the X0 disruptor. The thing I like about the range 1-4 improvement is at that range the X2 ship is going to take significant return damage.

Thanks Mike.

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