When I look at both SSJ issues the criteria seems to be conjectural or impossible and all things related. This is, any historical efforts that ended up considered but not realized in the game history. Somethings are the fanciful musings of some design staff or simulator programmer or stuff that actually was worked on but proved impossible to build or fund. Of course, this is run through the SVC filter to keep things intelligent.

My SSJ2 story is official history along the lines of a reasonably accurate movie base on known and speculated events.

So there are things that have historical pinnings to varying degrees.

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 11:37 am: Edit

Hmm. Wow, SPP, you always do the "big picture" well. I had not considered those things.

I'll be honest, my main interest in "early warp" Romulans was so they could play nice with other races in a free campaign (such as the one I run now in The Farthest Stars). As it stands, in a Y-era campaign, nobody is gonna want the Roms if it is the traditional "expand and conquer" type of game. I hadn't really given much consideration to the historical implications...

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Mike.....as far as the whole R-torp thing goes, remember the old Plasma-Y proposal for Y1?

Plasma-Y: R-torp arming cost (including no holding), uses S-torp damage chart.

Intermediate step between G/R plasma.

Was ditched when StarDrive Rom proposal got killed, and there wasn't any point in the sublight Roms not having R-torps.

Like the 'plasma and disruptor' idea....if the Roms had developed tacwarp, and bumped into (ie, fought) the Klinks, they would have copied/stolen/captured the tech ASAP.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Mike Strain:

It is not obvious that the Romulans would have stolen or copied disruptors. While disruptors are the most common weapon, there is also the possibility that having found warp drive the Romulans might have developed an entirely different weapon to work with warp drive.

Go back to the Captain's Log story about the Gorn Commando Raids. Remember that the scientist who made the simulated breakthrough was having trouble with the warp field destabilizing when the plasma was fired.

Simply assume that some other scientist that we did not see working in some other lab that was also raided, but the raid failed, was working on the solution by trying different simulated weapon designs. A year after the raids, he independently discovers that the Phlogic Gun could be fired through a warp field. The Romulans abandon plasma technology in favor of Phlogic Guns as the primary armament of their new warp powered fleet. This was always possible, but in our time line the Phlogic Gun was never developed because the inventer was killed in the Gorn raids.

What is a Phlogic Gun?

I have absolutely no idea.

The point is simply that it is not a given that the Romulans would have copied disruptors.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Mike:

Based on comments made by SPP elsewhere, I realized that a Pl-S with a Pl-R charging cost wasn't going anywhere. Besides, as I outlined above, there *are* Pl-S launchers in the Early Years. Everyone forgets that because those launchers also fire Pl-R torpedoes. So, if you take away the Pl-R ability, but leave the Pl-S ability, I get what I wanted, but don't even have to change any rules. I just have to explain that a Pl-S is not an upgrade Pl-G, but rather an "immature" Pl-R.

SPP:

FWIW, I was the one who proposed having the Romulans adopt disruptor technology, not Mike Strain. Obviously, they don't have to, but I was trying to come up with a background that would allow them to, and would allow them to develop recognizably "SFB-Romulan" ships by keeping the Klingon influence (albeit in a completely different way).

No, these theoretical Romulans do not need to use disruptors, plasmas, or phlogic guns. However, in the interest of creating a solution that causes the least repercussions to the rest of the setting, I was trying to stick with solutions that used either plasma or disruptors. I didn't want to add new technology, because at that point we are no longer talking about "Early Warp Romulans", but are rather introducing a brand new race that looks like our old Romulans.

So, in the interests of keeping "Early Warp Romulans" being recognizably Romulan, I think it is best if we do restrict ourselves to plasma and/or disruptors. It is not necessary, of course, but I do think it helps.

And, no, I am not one of the game designers. I could easily be way off base. I am not trying to cast my opinions or wishes on anyone else. I am just trying to explain why my suggestions stick with plasmas and disruptors instead of using something else.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 12:09 pm: Edit

SVC or SPP. Could either of you reply to my previous post? If neither of you can remember, then perhaps it wasn't all that important after all, and in no way would I be offended. Just life. It was a long time ago.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 02:52 pm: Edit

To further the thought I mention above on the Early Warp Romulans ...

I fully understand that giving Romulans warp changes everything. And, after that point, anything could happen. Heck, who is to say they *don't* end up fulfilling their manifest destiny of ruling this part of the galaxy?

But at that point, are we really talking about the Romulans anymore? If they are given completely new weapons, systems and ships, aren't they really a new race in disguise?

Ideally, in my opinion anyway, Early Warp Romulans would:
1) Be recognizably Romulan using recognizably Romulan technology and ships.
2) Be relatively balanced with the surrounding powers.
3) Not dramatically change the overall history.

This allows for free campaigns (as was mentioned earlier) in the Early Years, but also folds smoothly into a more historical situation by the time the GW rolls around.

Again, this is just one guy's view. I could easily be in the minority, and could easily be completely wrong. However, this is where I am coming from, and why I didn't consider any new technology beyond what is already available and in the game.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 03:19 pm: Edit

Glenn Hoepfner:

The fact that I do not remember it does not mean that it is not in a file somewhere for consideration. There are a lot of proposals. The only that is uppermost in my mind is "General War Carnivons", and that only because I (me personally) consider them to be the centerpiece of a Stellar Shadows Journal #3 as the Paravians were for Stellar Shadows Journal #2/Captain's Log #28 and the Peladin were for Stellar Shadows Journal #1.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 04:29 pm: Edit

Heh, I barely remember the proposal myself, and I submitted it. Maybe I'll open a topic on it and see what happens. Thanks.

By George M. Ebersole (George) on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 03:51 am: Edit

Just as a matter of curiosity, I actually submitted a Bootlegger reverse maneuvre called a "Pivot back", where the ship in question would not lose "momentum" but would reverse direction, turning one hex facing per impulse, until it was travelling in the opposite direction.

SVC was intrigued to the point of responding, but pushed my then young mind why we needed to add such a maneuvre when an HET would do just as well.

My lack of articulation failed to respond to the point that it would not be an HET, but a sort of "soft" HET, yet still dangerous and chancey in some capacity.

End of story

By Dale McKee (Brigman) on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 10:02 pm: Edit

I want to post to express my continued interest in seeing more "GW-era" Paravians - several hulls were described in CL 28 with no SSDs provided. Also, I would LOVE to see a similar treatment of the Carnivons.

Just a respectful note that I will buy at least four copies of such a product - one for me, and one for the group, and a couple for buddies.

By Phil Shanton (Mxslade) on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 09:14 pm: Edit

Preface: I'm not sure where to put this, it probably belongs in the Module Q, Y3, or SSJ4 topic. It doesn't need an immediate answer, I place it while I am thinking about it:

In Module Y1 we are told that the Romulans and Gorns; and Federation for that matter; fought with Atomic Missles and Lasers.

In the old Q section in the Commander's Edition the Romulan Warbirds were equipped with Atomic Missles. The R section says that the Warbirds were built around the Plasma Torpedeo.

My question(s) is this:

Is this the same class?

Did the Romulans use the same Hull type and just modify the design for the Plasma Torp?

What did they do with the Missle launching Warbirds? (I don't see them converting them to Plasma weapons, because the R-torps are like spinal mount weapons in Traveller{at least that's how it was always explained to me back in the day} so converting ships that were originally designed for use was next to impractical).

If the Missle firing Warbirds were still around, could they be modified to use captured Gorn Warp Atomic Missles? (This seems probable after reading Warp Before Smarba)

As I said it's not a rush, just puting here for future consideration.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 08:40 am: Edit

And some GW era carnivons:

Heel nippers, death bolts (H drones?) and disruptor cannon!

By Peter David Boddy (Pdboddy) on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 09:14 am: Edit

I'd like to second (third?) the GW era Carnivons in SSJ3. Maybe a "Look who's coming to dinner!" surprise for the Kzin and Lyrans?

By Randy O. Green (Hollywood750) on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 09:36 am: Edit

One of the bigger issues (to me, in my fiction focused view of the universe) is that, yes, GW-era Carnivons should be the centerpiece of SSJ#3. However, it is terribly hard to write GW era fiction for them when there are no rules, no history, etc. Even SSJ fiction.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:05 am: Edit

IIRC there ARE carnivon scenarios and a bit of fiction.

In module Y?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 11:13 am: Edit

The principle problem with trying to create General War Carnivons is that I have less time to do things on the side than I used to. The General War Paravians were not, for example, created for Captain's Log #28. Steve Petrick (me) had some dead time and went off on a tangent with that time.

While a historical background (a different "Carnivon-Reality") is floating around in the back of my mind. Time to put letters in a format to create words and develop that background into an article is lacking. Even at that, there is time needed to look at the Carnivon ships and tech to try to grow them into General War Tech.

It all takes time, and time I have less and less of of late.

I would also like to work on an idea for the "Simulator General War" that I have had floating around in the back of my mind, both as a Fed and Empire concept and a general campaign concept. But that would take a lot of time and might not really be worth the effort for an article.

But time is something I have less and less of, and more and more things I need to do.

It has gotten to the point that SVC and I are alternating "quiet time", i.e., each of us takes an evening after close of business to stay here alone and work on our own projects while the phone is not ringing and the other is not here in the office to serve as something of a distraction, and there are no orders to process, the printers are not hammering away in the background or beeping that they need more paper, or toner, or have a jam, or a full finisher tray that needs to be emptied.

Both of us on our individual nights have wound up staying here past midnight (not every time, but it does happen) to work on our projects that we cannot get finished during the normal work hours due to the distractions.

There is a lot of stuff that needs to be done "Now", a lot of stuff that has to be done to "meet the schedule" (and I am generally pushing to get as far ahead of my schedule as I can so that I have time to deal with "crisis" situations or disasters), and lots of day-to-day things that have to be dealt with "as they arise".

There are not a lot of things that we can just keep putting off until later.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Friday, September 26, 2008 - 12:08 am: Edit

After Y2 is published and more Fed member races are published, I was thinking that "Balkanized Feds" would be a good centerpiece for SSJ3. But if GW-era Carnivons are closer to done, then whatever

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, September 26, 2008 - 05:34 pm: Edit

Well, I have always assumed that GW-era Carnivons would be the centerpiece of SSJ3, as that was what was "promised" in SSJ1. (Yes, I know that things can change. That is why "promised" was in quotes.)

That said, I would much rather see some Romulans who get warp early. They would develop very differently if that happened, and I would very much like to see what twisted vision would pop out of Petrick's head on that. I know what I would come up with, but I am sure it wouldn't be nearly as good or twisted as what Petrick would develop.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 03:44 am: Edit

I've often wondered about a fairly simple SSJ article-- what if the tholians had figured out how to weld hulls together in Y100 for the police based ships and say Y120 for the heavier hulled ships. They remain a small kingdom, but the balance of power in the area would, IMO radically change.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 03:55 pm: Edit

With the vote being discussed for a possible SSJ#3 going on, I had an idea for a possible SSJ subject, but didn't want to have an incompetent, bumbling ensign named after me (no matter how appropriate ).

As we all know, the classic Federation (old style) CL was based on a pre-warp Terran ship that did reasonably well with the conversion. The Y-series modules also included other Terran ships that had been converted to "Warp Refitted" status; ships that, historically in the SFU, didn't convert quite so well.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm curious to see what might have happened if those ships, and for that matter, the ships used by the other races that constituted the Federation, HAD converted well. Same thing for the Kzinti W-era ships.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 04:57 pm: Edit

It would be interesting to see and I would gladly obtain such a product...

... after SFB R modules, X2, Magellanic empires tat are missing, finishing Omega (many gaps in the material), bringing all F&E modules up to date, adding F&E Civil Wars, Andro War, and Tactical Operations, these listed items not necessarily in that order. A C4 module featuring x technology would also be pleasing.

Certainly as this SSJ idea (or any other) would displace one of these items I have listed (except the C4 one which I made up) I would not want it to be worked on at this time.

(SVC: What Richard is saying is that it will never be worked on. During the five years it would take to do that, other "real" items would develop that would also come first.)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Richard: email me a memo detailing what is "missing" from Omega. I want to compare your list to three others and see if I have everything.

By Jeffrey George Anderson (Jeff) on Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 09:54 pm: Edit

My apologies, Richard; I never meant to imply that other potential products should be impacted. No, the only thing I was trying to do was reactivate an old thread and (hopefully) let some folks relax in a "Slide some beers" type of discussion.

On another note, if you're not too fond of potentially undergunned ships (as the crayon-on-graph-paper SSDs I've been toying with for the aforementioned "Updated W-era ships" have turned out to be), there are some others...

Ever since I saw the SSD for the Hydran IC, I've wondered about similar ships, with HUGE swarms of fighters, used by other peoples. What might they be like? Could ANYONE make enough drone counters for a battle between two task forces commanded by such ships?

(SVC, between us, I recognize the NEED to keep such a ship as a Hydrans-Only ship; PLEASE don't throw me in the Agonizer Booth over the idea... )

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 10:45 pm: Edit

On the other end of the scale from the IC (speaking of undergunned ships) if I recall correctly, the Andro MWPs have 2 P-2 360 on units with an SSD and PA panels and such.