Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through January 15, 2020	25		01/15 05:27pm
	Archive through January 18, 2020	25		01/18 09:34pm

Seriously, if the Orion Enclave did anything that looked like a buildup prior to about Y176, the Klingons and Romulans would have invaded and crushed them.

Neutrality (declared by the Orion Enclave in Y172: See Captain's Log #17, Page #4, a single sentence in the paragraph continued from the previous page) basically means the Orion Enclave does not take actions to antagonize the Klingons and Romulans. Building bases and a larger shipyard is, to say the least, "provocative."

Historically, after Y175, the enclave was effectively brought back into the Federation by "Operation Wedge" (Captain's Log #17, Page #5, Left Hand Column) which split the Romulan-Klingon Front and reached the edge of Tholian Holdfast space.

The upshot is that, historically, the Orion Enclave was only neutral from some point in Y172 to some point in Y176, i.e., between four years (Fall Y172 to Spring Y176) or five years (Spring Y172 to Fall Y176), or eight to 10 Federation & Empire turns.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Thinking... The Orions had early years ships. They made said ships. They must have had a shipyard to make them? They joined the Federation with a special clause to give them a little more autonomy. There shipyard of course was what shut down? No it remains making Freighters. Great big ore freighters.

Is there Federation oversite? Would there be? Now so I build a few Jumbo freighters, Then a Orion LR. We are building warp engines for freighters. Over in yard B..well really they are for the LR.

The Enclave goes Neutral. Better then being devastated by a Klingon attack. Now the hidden Shipyard activities need not be hidden and they build a few more LRs are what have you.

Mind I am sure My thoughts will be shot down by some ones logic are better Knowledge of the game back ground and mechanics. However It is my thought

Just as we know it was not Gorn Prime teams that took out the warp drive experiments and facilities of the Romulans. It was Vulcan spies pretending to be Romulans. That sabotaged the warp drive.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 06:50 pm: Edit

Federation PD20M gives Y180 as the date the Orions rejoined the Federation (upon concluding that the Federation would win the war). While its true that the Coalition may have been pushed back from the Enclave's border much earlier, I'm sure that the Orions were aware that that didn't necessarily mean the Coalition was gone for good (we have the benefit of hindsight, the Orions did not know the future course of the war). I suspect that the Orions waited until they were certain they were beyond the Coalition's reach for the foreseeable future before abandoning neutrality (and I'm sure the Romulan raid on Rigel IV convinced them to be cautious).

I don't think that the Coalition necessarily would have seen the upgrade of a base or the construction of a shipyard as being provocative so long as the Orions seemed serious about pursuing a neutral (or Coalition-leaning) policy and didn't build in excess of what the Coalition considered the Enclave's legitimate defensive needs. I could even see the Coalition selling the Enclave a ship or two (perhaps ships that had been interned and were otherwise of no use) as part of a larger strategy of swaying the Enclave toward the Coalition.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Gregory,

Since the Orion National Guard DD was new construction (not a conversion of an Early Years DD) per R8.47 that suggests the presence of a shipyard of some sort in the Middle Years (unless the Orions contracted out its construction).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 09:34 pm: Edit

We appear to have a contradiction in the published history.

Is PD20M confirmed data? Because it appears to conflict with Petrick's citations from captains log #17.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 10:54 pm: Edit

The article Petrick is citing appears to be the "A Brief History of the General War" which is also posted on the website. The description of "Operation Wedge, Y176" states "a swift maneuver encircled the Orion enclave and forced them (although not the pirate fleet) to return to the Federation."

The "History of Orion" on page 94 of Federation PD20M states: "By Y180, the resurgent Federation had driven the Klingons back from the Orion Enclave, and the Orions (sensing that the Federation would win) returned to full member status in the Federation"

If we wanted to reconcile Captains Log #17 with PD20M I would point out that the Captain's Log article doesn't explicitly state that the Orions rejoined the Federation in Y176, simply that they were encircled in Y176 and this (eventually) resulted in them returning to the Federation. As I mentioned before, the Orions would have had reason to be cautious about abandoning neutrality.

I would imagine that the actual reunion in Y180 was somewhat anti-climatic given that the Orions would have been unable to trade with the Coalition once they were encircled and the Enclave's strategic importance would have declined as the Coalition was pushed back toward the original borders.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, January 19, 2020 - 03:41 am: Edit

Even with the success of Operation Wedge in year 176, this entire question revolves around just what "Orion Enclave Neutrality" means in practice.

If the Federation had to avoid entering the territory of the Enclave, the main effort of operation Wedge would have to divide into two groups, as the Federation force would need to detour around the Orion's.

If the Federation did not avoid the Orion Enclave, does that mean the Orion's opened the supply nodes (to use F&E terminology) and supply the Federation forces attacks on the coalition?

Either the Orion Enclave was a true neutral, and protected their borders from both sides in the General War, or they secretly supported the Federation. (Note:there is zero published data to support the idea of covert support for Either side.)

If the neutrality declaration was just diplomatic theater, then just maintaining a police force at peace time levels is the most logical option that the Orion Enclave (EC) could exercise.

None of which answers the question, what would have happened in the event of a monster attack (such as a Juggernaut) on the OC.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, January 19, 2020 - 04:11 am: Edit

SPP, etc.

Hence my curiosity.

My GUESS (emphasis) is that the Orions got a ship or two from the Feds & Klingons.

Maybe one was interned and then converted (say a Fed FF or F5). The other may have been a gift; especially likely is something that got captured and wasn't worth it to convert.

Actually, that would also lead to a nice "Brothers of the Anarchist" article.

For example (just random ramblings here):

When the Orion enclave had to declare neutrality, there was a Federation Frigate (Sir Francis Drake?) in dock at the local SB/ BS that was not spaceworthy due to (hand waves). Rather than scuttle the ship, the Federation "gave" the ship to the Orion enclave with the caveat that it was to be returned once the Federation resumed responsibility within the enclave. A few crew remained with "Sir Frank," but the vast majority of positions were filled by transfers from the existing Orion Police fleet. The Klingons had 2 -4 special observers aboard assigned to the ship at any given time(in theory to watch the former Federation crew) to assure it did not violate neutrality. This was considered "easy duty," but the officers were rotated frequently to prevent any funny business.

2 years later, during one of the battles leading up to operation wedge, a Klingon F5 found itself isolated between the enclave & tholia and unable to return to the Klingon fleet. The Klingons voluntarily interned the ship, under much the same conditions as the Federation ship a couple years earlier.

Both ship received some"Orion modifications" which do NOT include stealth coatings or engine doubling.

Aboard the Frigate...

By the time the Enclave rejoined the Federation in Y180, both ships were about worn out and were scrapped.

My point is 1) They both are readliy upgradeable. The F5 to a F5W or F6. The FF to a FFB or something.

Heck, to make this really interesting make them some oddball ships:

So the Fed example as a minesweeper based on a DW. The Orions don't NEED a minesweeper. So converted the heck out of it.

The Klingon ship was a F5G or F5(tuglet). Whatever. Or even a Lyran DW.

The point is that the darn things shouldn't be unbalancing, they ought to have a touch more combat power, but no where near enough for anyone to get in a twist...

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 19, 2020 - 12:28 pm: Edit

If such a space monster attacked the Orion Enclave, the result would have been quite serious damage and casualties.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Sunday, January 19, 2020 - 01:05 pm: Edit

Someone may want to look up what F & E has to say about Orion neutrality but I assume that it meant that Star Fleet had to evacuate the Enclave or face internment. Star Fleet might order the crew to scuttle a ship if it's unable to leave the Enclave (due to lack or fuel, battle damage, or Coalition blockade) or they might simply allow the Orions to impound it. The Orions might later arrange to purchase or lease an impounded ship (or accept it as a gift) but would need to provide their own crew and inform the other governments of the transfer of ownership.

Fixed defenses (orbital or ground bases) would probably simply be transferred to Orion control. Star Fleet personnel unwilling to pledge loyalty to the Orion government would need to evacuate or be interned. I'm not sure what the affect on commercial traffic would be but I believe that background states that the Orions traded with all sides.

I don't think "neutrality" means that the Orions necessarily needed to treat all sides equally. They might, for example, give the Klingons more favorable trade terms at a time when the Coalition was ascendent.

We haven't discussed Orion internal politics much. Federation PD20M mentions that 40% of the Orion population "disapproved" of seceding from the Federation but there is no mention of any active opposition to secession though we know of one Orion colony world (Naramar III) that "refused to follow the Orion Enclave into breaking away from the Federation" but that world was located well outside the borders of the Enclave (3005) and was already semi-independent of the Orion government .

We also know that not all of the citizens of the Enclave were ethnic Orions (perhaps they were the bulk of the population that disapproved of seceding). There is also mention of an Orion Pride Party (the OPP) which "focuses mainly on maintaining Orion interests" and had "significant strength" in the Enclave prior to independence. One can only assume that the early days of independence might have seen a surge in the OPP's popularity and influence perhaps allowing them to dominate the Central Political Committee of the OCA (the governing body of the Enclave). I would imagine that nationalist, pro-independence political parties would tend to be Coalition sympathizers (they might need Coalition support to resist pressure to rejoin the Federation) while parties opposing independence would naturally sympathize with the Alliance.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, January 20, 2020 - 01:31 am: Edit

LIke I said, some minor interesting thingy(s) but not enough to get anyones tighty whities into a twist.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, January 20, 2020 - 02:42 am: Edit

What would the Orion Order of Battle have been when they declared independence? How many of those police destroyers/carriers did they have? Apparently there was also a "National Police Flagship" design in Captain's Log #30. Does anyone recall references to any other ships? Might they have had a monitor? Federation PD20M mentions that some monitors were crewed by National Guard units rather than Star Fleet.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 20, 2020 - 01:35 pm: Edit

Mike Grafton:

The background already says pretty much that Klingon ships that were cut off from Klingon space by Operation Wedge went to work for the Romulans (being cut off from Klingon space does not mean they are cut off from Romulan space). Note famously that the Klingons traded three D5s for three SparrowHawks as a result of the front being divided.

It seems unlikely that the Orion Enclave was providing repairs to the Klingons (violates their neutrality), so you are unlikely to find a Klingon ship undergoing repairs and "gifted" to the Enclave.

The possibility that a crippled Federation ship might have been docked to the Orion Enclave's battle station and unable to be repaired in time to leave (surely the Orion government delivered a notice that it was going to secede and a time when all Federation units must exit Enclave space or be interned or attacked by the Enclave's forces to preserve its neutral status).

But I do not see the Enclave "WYNizing" or "LDRizing" any ships.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 20, 2020 - 03:07 pm: Edit

(503.5) ORION ENCLAVE

(503.51) STATUS: The seven-hex province, including the planet Orion (hex 2812), is a part of the Federation.
(503.511) When any Coalition ship (with a valid supply path) enters this province, the Orion government secedes (withdraws) from the Federation (immediately, no reaction or further movement) and declares the province to be a neutral enclave. The Coalition ships in the Enclave are interned, Federation ships can immediately move one or two hexes [under the terms of (302.7)] to leave the Enclave or can accept internment. Thereafter, the province is treated under (503.1). (Should the Federation try to re-conquer the province, a dozen other provinces would also exercise their rights under the Federation charter and secede.)
(503.512) The Orions will re-join the Federation if no hex of the Orion Enclave is able to connect to the Coalition Supply Grid at the start of any Federation Player Turn. If the Orion rejoin the Federation, the interned Coalition ships are captured immediately (503.4). There is no discount for the cost of using this ship because it was not crippled.

(503.32) WAR: If the Coalition ships do not accept internment,or if Coalition ships that enter the Enclave later do not accept internment, the Enclave rejoins the Federation immediately. If the Coalition attacks the province (rather than force it into neutrality) then later withdraw and then still later move back in, the province will again declare itself neutral.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 20, 2020 - 04:40 pm: Edit

From the above rule, I can see the Klingon ship "interned" being an E3 or perhaps at G2 (called up specifically for the job). I do not think any Klingon/Coalition player is going to use any ship bigger than he has to to get the Orion Enclave to declare its neutrality. In game terms, it is not going to be a "surprise," although I think I recall one of the scenario setups for this period in Federation & Empire defined the interned ship as an F5 (after all, for the "historical" Klingons/Coalition, the sudden declaration of neutrality by the Enclave probably was a surprise).

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 20, 2020 - 04:56 pm: Edit

A G2 (at least in F&E) could not normally enter the Federation.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, January 20, 2020 - 05:16 pm: Edit

So... just speculating.

When the Orion Enclave declares neutrality, the war time taxes that the Federation had been collecting would still be collected by the Enclave government.

What happens to those Econ points?

Stolen? Embezzled? Lost? Forwarded to the Federation as a "bribe" for future consideration?

Heck, considering that there are Orion Merchants involved, there could be Orion Commercial Convoys being dispatched to every coalition and allied capital. Trading with both sides, remember?

Just being neutral does not stop economics. Even if you decided to impose a peace time economic model there would still be revenue, be it 25%, 33% or even 50% of the war time level.

If the Klingons had the ability to invade and occupy the Orion Enclave, why did they not do it? If they did not have the ability to invade, wouldn't the Orion's know that?

Even if building a shipyard is "provocative ", why not build up the PDU to the allowed limit? If the comment above about some monitors being operated by regional powers is true, why not let the Enclave build (or trade for) a monitor?

Heck, after the introduction PF's, could the Orion's trade with the Coalition for as many PF flotillas as there are PDBs? Combined with Federation Bomber squadrons, invading Orion home world would be a dangerous gambit.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, January 20, 2020 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Per 503.512 The Enclave should have rejoined the Federation in Y176 after being encircled but perhaps Coalition counterstrikes managed to keep the Enclave connected to the Coalition supply grid for a bit longer? (Since the Enclave only rejoins if it is unable to connect to the Coalition supply grid at the START of the Federation Player Turn). Even then it's hard to reconcile 503.512 with the Y180 date in PD20M unless we assume that 503.512 simplifies a more complex political situation. Perhaps the Orions abandoned "neutrality" in Y176 without rescinding their independence.

For example, offering the Federation "loans" (which were later forgiven) in lieu of taxes, allowing Star Fleet "transit rights" but not allowing them to reoccupy their bases, and various other legal fictions that accommodated the Federation but fell short of reintegrating with the Federation or declaring war on the Coalition. Thus the Orions could make excuses to the Coalition ambassadors that these were unavoidable concessions given their encirclement by the Federation and such privileges would be rescinded should the encirclement be broken (a true statement). This gave the Orions some time to see how the military situation would develop before making any hasty decisions about rejoining the Federation.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, January 20, 2020 - 06:01 pm: Edit

I think the Klingons didn't invade because independence denied the territory and resources of the Enclave to the Federation at virtually zero cost to the Coalition (which allowed them to use the resources they would have used in attacking the Enclave to conquer some other province). The Klingons might also have seen a future for the Enclave as a "buffer" state (between them and the Romulans) or client state (if a pro-Klingon government could be cultivated).

Respecting Orion neutrality (and even allowing them to thrive) would also encourage other Federation worlds to consider secession as a way of avoiding the devastation of the General War or the threat of occupation, a situation which (if they could get the ball rolling) could result in the collapse of the Federation without the expense and mess of having to invade the heart worlds. So there is really more at stake here than a single province.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 20, 2020 - 06:50 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

Under the game, if the Orion Enclave is neutral, the Federation loses 10 economic points per turn, and the Coalition gains the fact that the Federation is losing 10 economic points per turn as long as the Orion enclave ie neutral.

If the Coalition conquers the Orion Enclave, then the Federation loses 10 economic points per turn, and the Coalition gains (if I recall correctly) six economic points per turn (1 for a captured province, three for a captured major planet, and two for a captured minor planet).

The question is simply the relative strength of the two sides and the cost to capture the Orion Enclave. If the Federation has played badly and the Coalition has played well (luck can be a factor, i.e., if the Federation has rolled badly in a lot of battles and the Coalition has rolled well and neither side has played particularly badly), then it may be worth the losses to conquer the enclave for that six extra economic points a turn and the fact that the Federation will be losing 10 economic points a turn (a shift of 16 economic points). If the Coalition thinks it cannot afford the cost to conquer the Enclave, it may be best to just deny the Federation 10 economic points a turn for a few turns rather than lose ships in an assault on something they know they will not be able to hold.

If you can keep the Enclave neutral for four turns, you have cost the Federation the economic equivalent of five heavy cruisers for the transfer of a frigate to the Federation (when the Enclave finally rejoins them). If you conquer and hold the Enclave, that is a new war cruiser a turn, and a new frigate every three turns, and the Federation is still down those cruisers (and more if you can hold it longer). So what does it cost you to take the Orion Enclave rather than keep it neutral? And the question is more complex than that because taking the Enclave will involve not just casualties, but the opportunity cost, i.e., the ships you sent to conquer the Enclave are not available to do something else that might have hurt the Alliance as a whole more.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 20, 2020 - 10:10 pm: Edit

It also provides a barrier to fleets positioned around Earth. The Coalition has an easier time keeping the route open between the Klingons and the Romulans and can also build a base south of the enclave without too much worry that the Federation will prevent its completion or upgrades.

However, if the tactics warrant it, the Coalition can move through the enclave to hit Fed targets (usually in combination with conquering the enclave). The Federation doesn't have this option.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 - 12:58 am: Edit

Like I said, an interesting side note of the history.

No ships big enough to get anyones undies bunched.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 - 01:26 am: Edit

I think it would be interesting if history repeated itself:

The Enclave went ahead and built a new (or updated) design to supplement (and eventually replace) the outdated Police Destroyers only to have the new ships mutiny and disappear in Y180 just prior to reuniting with the Federation. These ships later reappeared as mercenaries or (rarely) pirates. Whether this was part of the plan from the beginning or just separatist officers unhappy with the prospect of taking orders from Star Fleet is unknown.

This also avoids any issues with with adding any new ships to the Federation Order of Battle after reunification.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 - 07:40 am: Edit

There are a few "unclaimed" hexes on the F&E map(neutral zone hexes near the ISC and Gorn border).

If the "Orion Enclave Defence Force" did mutiny, and retreat to a unclaimed sector, to establish an independent freehold of Orion mercenary merchants...

If the only ship building facilities available to the Enclave was a civilian yard...then the base hulls would be limited to free trader, APT, small and large freighters.

What if the Enclave ships all appeared as civilian designs? Its doubtful the Klingons Romulans Federation would kill all civilian ships on sight without trying to verify identity.

We already have published ship variants for arming all the civilian designs.

Why not make the Orion Enclave an optional empire with an expiration date? Given a neutral position between the warring empires THAT BENEFITS BOTH SIDES (emphasis, not shouting) there would be no apparent game impact on F&E, unless the Klingons intend to conquer the Enclave...)

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 - 09:34 am: Edit

I don't think that mercenaries would need (or be equipped to exploit) an unclaimed hex though they might conceivably be hired by an independent industrial planet. I was thinking the mercenaries would still work with the cartels (since they need repair, resupply and other support) just not as pirates since the ships weren't optimized for that mission and there is a market for mercenaries during and after the General War (and through the Andromedan Invasion presumably).

I'm not suggesting the ships be civilian designs. I think that would be boring and adds nothing to the game. I am more interested in an evolution of the Police Destroyer design.

The Enclave already has an expiration date (either Y176 or Y180). The problem is anything you allow the Orions to have ends up belonging to the Federation after reunification. I was trying to find a solution to that issue (assuming it is an issue).

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 - 01:00 pm: Edit

I don't think the Orion "Self-Defense Forces" rejoining the Federation is a problem.

Obviously, anything the Orion enclave built during the period of succession is simply part of the (established to be quasi-independent) local police forces and remains as such following reunification.

Once they get production going, they go at a peacetime rate of 5 EP/turn, spent to produce a minor shipyard for a 7 Compot 5 EP CW equivalent ship and then later spent on the ship. Trade income (if any) allows additional police destroyers to be purchased or production of variants.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 - 02:26 pm: Edit

I think the police generally need more ships rather than bigger ships, so more likely a POL shipyard.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, February 01, 2020 - 11:19 pm: Edit

The idea that the Orion Enclave ship yard is restricted building POL ships is directly contradicted by the published history.

The Early year rules modules include a number of Orion ships, the implication being that the Orion’s built their fleet to their own specifications, not to satisfy membership in the Federation BEFORE they JOINED the Federation.

Just because the ORION Enclave built the National Police Destroyer and Carrier class ships, and the fact that those ships just happen to be size class 4 , in accordance with the treaty negotiated with the Federation, (and coincidentally is the document that authorized the Orion’s to continue responsibility for police operations in the Province that contains Orion) is not conclusive proof that the Orion ship yards are limited to constructing size class 4 ships.

F&E rules set allows larger slip ways to produce smaller size class hulls. Say you have a DN size slipway that you decided not to produce a DN in for a turn, you could elect to use it to produce a CA or CC, or even a CL, FF or (if the empire has one in production) an ES (think E3 or E4).

The Orion ship yard is old, but since they once produced size class 3 hulls, is not a justification to assume that they CAN’T produce size class 3 hulls.

Granted, they might have to update the plant and equipment, move the junk out of the portion of the slipway that they haven’t used in sixty or seventy plus years...