Archive through December 29, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: STELLAR SHADOWS:
Stellar Shadow Journal #3:
Archive through December 29, 2019
Moving on.
It was mentioned above that starting with an existing ship and adding a minimal refit to get a viable RTN hunter/killer.
Just a little speculation triggered by a comment posted earlier, but what is it that makes the GSC effective in the role? More than special sensors, or the ability to carry F-18 fighters or heavy fighters (f-111 etc.)
Just wondering if the cargo boxes allowed the ships to stay on station longer? I know cargo boxes in SFB are normally little more than damage sponges. But if they are necessary to complete the RTN hunter/killer role, we need to know how many are needed, and if you could just off load one shuttle (or two?) and fill the shuttle box with cargo would be enough? (If it were me, I would disassemble the shuttles and store them until the cargo was consumed.
If a special sensor Is required, could you just mount 1 or 2 special sensors on the fed saucer of a likely ship type (CA, DN, BCH as they were in the GSC saucers? Do you need 4, or would 2 be sufficient?
Probably examine the Strategic Levels of the Tactical Intelligence rules to see what ships can determine certain things and when.
SVC above said strategic range is not vital to the mission so it is not the cargo boxes. I think what makes the CVL effective in the role is that it is capable of finding and killing an Andro satellite base while having special sensors to find it. Between the ship's weapons and the attrition units it can deal with the base assuming it is undefended. Most conventional scouts cannot take out a satbase with their weapons and very few carry attrition units.
It is not clear how many special sensors are needed. It appears two is sufficient since PF tenders were given this duty and most of them have two. It is possible having more makes them more effective at scanning more quickly but two appears to be viable.
So, why then can a DN not get a cheap scout refit That adds two or even four special sensors like the GSC has on its saucer, to complete the RTN hunter/killer mission?
I would guess that you do not refit dreadnoughts to perform that mission because they are too busy leading the regular fleets fighting off Andromedan attackers and still trying to keep an eye on the neighbors. In addition a PF Tender with a full flotilla has as much firepower as a dreadnought and it already has scout channels.
Pfs and PF flotillas are cheaper than a DN (in F&E terms). Also DNs have a mission already (fleet flagship) which PFTs generally cannot substitute for.
So an empire would use DNs as fleet flagships (generally) and PFTs for RTN hunting.
In addition, a DN's firepower is it's weapons which mostly preclude also using sensors for EW. A PFT and flotillas's fire power if mostly in the PFs, which the PFT can support with EW without sacrificing the flotilla's firepower.
In the case of a dangerous situation, replacing the flotilla is a lot easier than rerplacing a lost DN (and a lot cheaper). Even if the PFT is also lost, it's still cheaper, and you don't lose as many lives.
I'm betting that adding Special Sensors is not a trivial task. When your entire empire is getting Zorked, you'd do whatever needed to kill the RTN bases/
Adding special sensors seems to be easy enough, being a common type of upgrade for many standard ship classes.
Ask your self how long would it be. first you have to pull the ship out of its present mission, then how long will the installation take. The ship you want may not be available, it may be in a refit already, For example in WWII radar refits might take from 1 to 4 or 5 months if the material was available and the ship was available and the dock yard was available. then it had to be tested. How many hunters do you need,
Dreadnoughts too rare to tie them up searching for Sat bases.
Quote:Dreadnoughts too rare to tie them up searching for Sat bases.
Because they've got more important things to do? Like what? At least for a few years, destroying the RTN is the most important mission the Galactics have. If they fail at it, they lose in the long run.
And it's not like converting a dreadnought to an RTN hunter/killer makes it unsuitable for any other roles. Consider, for example, a Klingon C8S. It's F&E stats are 11/12 I believe. Now let's convert it to a hypothetical RTN hunter/killer by converting the two disruptors on the center warp engine to Special Sensors. So now it's presumably a 10/12*. Except... it carries a flotilla of PFs (12 compot) and a squadron of ZYC fighters (6 compot - more if they are megafighters). So considering only the ship and its own attrition units, we've reduced a unit with 29 attack factors all the way down to... 28 attack factors. Gosh. Pity the poor Klingons trying to command a full-sized battle fleet with this piece of junk. Their (just to pick a not-implausible number) 120 attack factor fleet (if commanded by a standard C8S) is now only 119 factors. The Klinks might as well just surrender.
In point of fact, a space control ship converted to an RTN hunter/killer is still about 99% as effective if circumstances require it to command a fleet. But it is an exceptionally good RTN killer, which the standard C8S (or other SCS) couldn't do at all. I must dissent from the notion that dreadnoughts wouldn't converted to this role (other than the already-existing SSCS). I think they would be.
*And that's converting the disruptors. Converting, say, the phaser-2s would limit its combat ability even less. But for this example I assumed some technobabble engineering reason for converting the disruptors.
What about replacing the boom Drone racks with Special sensors? If I remember correctly, the C9 doesn't have drone racks there; she has cargo boxes. Doesn't that mean they're something... Different?
Maybe it's just me, but I see it as kind of like how the Federation BCHes have three Canon "Versions," based on the secondary hull "Heavy Weapons." These aren't "Option Weapon Mounts" (even though they seem similar to me), but they've opened up two more variants (again, if I remember correctly); one with Phaser Ones in those mounts and another one, the one that REALLY triggered these thoughts, has Special Sensors.
I'm trying to recall where the C8S drone racks are (it loses most of them, compared to the standard C8) and I think the remaining ones are in the rear hull. But I'm not 100% positive.
In any case, the question of which weapons a space control ship should lose to pick up special sensors is secondary. The primary question is whether it would be done at all. Per my earlier post, I believe the answer is yes.
Now to convince everyone else...
If you would like to get a Federation viewpoint of what was done, you might want to read the ship description under the Ranger class BCH in the Federation master star ship book as to why some refits were not done and how it seems that Federation BCs in service at that time were leading hunter killer groups.
Hunting down the RTN was indeed critical, but so was defending the resources to not only supply the fleet with fuel and spare parts and replacement ships but keep those resources moving.
There are not a lot of Dreadnoughts, and there are very few cruisers that can stand up to a Dominator.
So you always are going to have the "Push me/Pull you" of strategy.
It makes far more sense to build battle fleets around dreadnoughts to resist the depredations of Dominator (and even Intruder) led attack forces trying to rip up the internal logistics of the given empires. Remember that while the RTN mission was a key ingredient of victory, there was already a great deal of damage inflicted by the Andromedans requiring relief efforts which had to be protected.
Starting the RTN hunt did not end the threat of massive Andromedan assaults overnight, and dealing with those required forces more powerful than those needed to destroy an isolated satellite base, and even a "Dreadnought Scout" would need to wait for back up if it found an Andromedan Battle Station. (The Kzinti Super Space Control Ship being perhaps an exception, but an Operating Andromedan Battle Station with a full complement of Mobile Weapons Platforms might just be able to hold off the Goliath and its attrition units until help arrived).
In the end, the Goliath pretty much proves that it was more efficient to use the smaller armed scouts to look for the RTN nodes and keep the Dreadnoughts leading battle fleets to fend off Andromedan attacks on the Galactics' logistics.
You cannot just ignore that the Andromedans retained offensive capabilities after Y195, and there just are not that many dreadnoughts that you can afford to strip them of even a few offensive weapons when they are expected to be in the thick of the fight.
Sure, after about Y200-Y201 the Andromednas remaining in the Milky Way were so beaten down that the threat of Dominator led assaults (even Intruder led assaults) was so diminished that you might have done it then. But by that time you were already (even as "Unity" drove on) looking at "after the war" when old animosities would start to rise again, and you would not want to install special sensors on dreadnoughts just to strip them off to fight old foes.
Eddie,
I argued at the time that the Ranger should have been a "real" rather than "unbuilt variant" ship*, but couldn't convince SPP. Regarding "leading hunter killer groups" see my comments about a hypothetical C8S-based RTN Hunter. A Ranger-class BCH could have led the group just as well as any standard Bismarck or Kirov-class ship. The minor difference in firepower becomes trivial when "amortized" over the entire battle fleet it is commanding. But a Ranger could also find RTN nodes itself, which no Bismarck or Kirov can do.
*Even better, it should have been based on a BCS (with 6 F-111s and 6 F-14s) rather than vanilla BCG.
I think that just putting heavy fighters/mega pack fighters and Mech links. On Survey cruisers would be the best way to hunt down and kill the RTN. With a heavy stand by squadron ready to go if called for a heavier target.
I can not disagree with Vandors comment. I think it's true.
However, playing devils advocate again... 
, that we are not just talking about "Real Star Fleet Universe History" here, the topic is Stellar SHadows Journal. That means, sometimes, ships that may violate the normal rules, but are "a blast to play".
Now adding a couple special sensors to a combat ship for a RTN hunter/killer scenario might be fun a couple of times... but I do not know if it has much replay potential. I mean, monster scenarios get replayed because the monster rules often have a variable factor that can change (I.e. Score information lab points then role to see what actions must be completed to end the scenario.)
Same with "putting heavy fighters and mech links" thingy.
Just want to suggest that there might be other ideas that we could look at.
For example:
Fit a Federation TUG with a special sensor, and have it haul three POLs or three FFGs (each with a 1/3=0.3334) movement cost, so hauling three of either type just looks (using the regular detection rules for S1 or S2 ranges) like a normal tug hauling a single normal weight cargo pod.
I assume that the ships (POL or FFG types) are not using their warp engines for movement.
Or, (in an effort to make some players heads explode...) any empires that use monitors, could use its pallet to carry fighters or heavy fighters. Refit a monitor to carry two special sensors, and since speed is not important getting to where they will conduct the search for the RTN nodes, can just launch a fighter or heavy fighter strike.
Use a tug or convoy to deploy a PDU to the location for scanning for The RTN nodes, and if one is detected, launch a strike (non Federation empires could use PFs.) Federation could use bombers offensively in this case.
The use of a PDU may seem counter intuitive, but a PDU would have the resources to stay on station until re supplied, or even moved to another location to repeat the process.
Or...the Fralli could participate by deploying a shuttle horde with a rented early warning station from a PDU... let's see what the Andromedans do when confronted by the kind of shuttle numbers the Fralli use!
Pace Jeff Wile, I have to disagree, at least partially, with Vandor's comment. Turning survey cruisers into improvised RTN hunters via heavy fighters on mech links may be part of the answer. But in too many cases, that combination just won't have adequate firepower. They could handle the smaller bases. But the larger ones will require more serious heavy hitters; ships like the Kzinti SSCS, Romulan Thunderhawk, or various of the X-tech PF tenders. And improvised RTN hunters based on survey cruisers are also more vulnerable to being intercepted and killed by Andromedan ships attempting to disrupt the Galactic powers' actions.
I'm not sure that you ever need to be able to have a single ship kill a larger Andro base. (1) The andros need the small bases to maintain mobility. Without those small bases they lose their mobility advantage and you can catch their fleets in transit. (2) The andros may not be able to pick up and move a large base quickly, which means that you may well have time to call up reserves for the relatively rare large base.
Saying that you can only handle the smaller bases with a Scout + Attrition and will need to run from any larger bases may well mean that a Scout + attrition is fine for the mission that matters.
No. The RTN is not reliant on the larger bases and if you don't destroy the RTN, then destroying the few larger bases does not prevent the Andromedans from conquering the alpha octant.
Move a satellite base requires a minimum of a Conquistador.
Move an augmented Satellite base requires a minimum of a transport version of a Conquistador. (Cannot remember the name just now).
Move a base station requires a minimum of an Intruder.
Move an augmented base station requires a minimum of an Infestor.
Move a battle station requires a minimum of an Infestor. Same for an augmented battle station.
Your most time consuming issue in all cases (once the transport ship or ships have arrived) is shutting down the positional stabilizers. You can remove augmentation modules and pack up any mobile weapons platforms, but you cannot pick up a satellite base or even begin to separate the sub bases of a larger base until the stabilizers wind down.
And so the race is on between when a found base can be evacuated, and when an assault force can get there to kill it. This is why evacuation was more common before the secret of the rapid transit system was understood.
I was thinking about the argument that the DN has to be sitting around to command fleets.
Exactly why can't it do a search for the RTN nodes (assuming it has a special sensor or two) and have it's fleet be the ships in it's reinforcements group 10,000 hexes away?
They are toddling along and once the DN finds the node, they speed up to warp 7 (?) and come running... Warp 7 is how many hexes per turn? 3^7? 7^3?
Well when you take a DN away from the fleet, does the command staff go with it, or does it stay with the fleet. A DN is much more than just the ship itself. Modify the DN weaken its firepower, and take the lead ship of the fleet off on a mission that may or may not find anything.