Jeff: Fit a Federation TUG with a special sensor, and have it haul three POLs or three FFGs...

No, that won't fly, although I'm surprised you didn't suggest six Skiffs.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 12:41 pm: Edit

It's stellar SHadows journal, if it's fun and a blast to play, we should be good!

Not saying hauling three pol ships is fun... but looking at the face of the Orion Raider cruiser captain as he realizes that attacking a single fed tug was not the great idea he thought it was, could be quite entertaining!

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Why would you have to haul them, cant the FFGs and POLs already move at warp speed?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Eddie, warp power emissions from a second ship spoils the ability of a scout to track the RTN. Towing the FFG or PoL ships means the modified tug with a special sensor can detect the Andromedans RTN nodes.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Question, you have to arrive in the sector before you can search it correct?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 03:59 pm: Edit

I think towing is not a practical way of moving ships long distances.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 04:44 pm: Edit

It is a practical way of moving cargo, star liner and battle pods. What justification do you have to deny the ability to tow ships?
if a Fed star ship separates from its warp drive (either in case of destroyer type hulls or ships with secondary hulls such as CA or CC class ships.) by your reasoning, it would be impossible to tow the section home to the main ship yard.

Or are you claiming only non tactical warp can be used to transport non cargo pods? (In that particular case, how do you explain the ability to move Planetary defense battalion ground stations?

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 05:18 pm: Edit

I think the key word is practical, is it practical to tow a ship that has its own warp capability. If a hunter ship has to be in the sector before it can search why try to tow something that has its own ability, the additional ships, just shut down warp power for the duration of the scan. During the scan if other ships are in the sector either Andros or non Andros how do they effect the scan.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 05:50 pm: Edit

I think towing is generally to the nearest base and is over as quickly as possible and is only done in the rare case of the towed ship actually being unable to manage on its own. There are probably economic costs associated with it not seen in SFB and it probably limits the speed at which movement can be down. I seriously doubt you can use your ship's normal cruising speed or whatnot while towing an equal sized ship.

It may also be that a continual tractor link going for weeks interferes with the ability to detect RTN links.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 06:30 pm: Edit

My understanding (such as it is) is that a ship would be towed to get it away from somewhere where it would be easy for the enemy to spot. The tug would haul it to a place where they rendezvous with a repair ship (of some sort) that gets it operational enough to steam to a real repair location; base, dry dock, or what have you.

(Just posting to test the new registration... )

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 07:51 am: Edit

Towing without docking cannot exceed speed 32.

Towing three police ships does not sound like an effective RTN killer and doing it by tractor rather than by docking would make the special sensors ineffective in the RTN hunting role.. Might as well dock three PFs.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 02:50 pm: Edit

What prevents Sublight Ships from falling under "Death Dragging", if connected by a Tractor, rather than Docked....

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, December 30, 2019 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Mark S. Hoyle:

The fact that death dragging only applies to shuttles, fighters, heavy shuttles, heavy fighters, heavy freight shuttles, medium bombers, very heavy freight shuttles, and heavy bombers.

Ships, to include fast patrol ships, Interceptors and skiffs, are not subject to death-dragging (there is no enabling rule), whether sublight or warp capable, whether intact or crippled to within one damage point of destruction.

Note also that ships, not even nimble ships (including again fast patrol ships, Interceptors and skiffs), whether warp powered or sublight only, cannot execute tractor breakaway maneuvers.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 01:03 pm: Edit

At the risk of pummeling a deceased equine, I would like to get back to the issue of dreadnought (or at least BCH) RTN hunters. I offered the hypothetical example of a C8S which replaces two of the disruptors with special sensors, stating that not only would the ship (which effectively has BCH-level weaponry but dreadnought power and shields, to say nothing of a PF flotilla and a fighter squadron) be a very formidable RTN hunter; but it would be for all practical purposes just as good as a standard C8S as a fleet flagship. While the reduction from 6 disruptors to 4 seems major, the reduction in total firepower when you consider that the ship would have the same phasers and drones as a standard C8S is much less so. When the PFs and fighters are taken into consideration, the difference in total combat power between the C8S and the C8 RTN hunter is even more minor. The advantage of these dreadnought or BCH-based (more precisely, space control ship or battle control ship) RTN hunters over standard counterparts with slightly more firepower, is flexibility. They can act as RTN hunters or as fleet flagships, depending on the needs of the moment.

Special sensors are comparatively rare and expensive (thought not nearly so rare as things like SFGs or (in this galaxy) web casters) and I certainly don't think every dreadnought and BCH would be converted to this configuration. But neither does it seem plausible to me that only the Kzinti would build a dreadnought-based RTN hunter, while the real superpower empires (Feds, Klingons, ISC) would not do so.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 - 01:26 pm: Edit

So far as Size Class 2 survey ships and/or "raid motherships" go for the purposes of Stellar Shadows, I wouldn't mind taking a somewhat longer view of things.


Historically, the first "X-raiders", such as the Federation GVX and the Romulan FireHawk-EX, appeared in or around the tail end of the General War. At the time, they were not considered to be all that important - notably, at war's end, the Feds swapped out the Powell's F-111s for heavy transport shuttles and sent it off to the Survey Area.

It wasn't until the onset of the Andromedan War in the Alpha Octant that these ships were reconsidered for use as fast responders - in Y190, Star Fleet recalled the Powell and swapped those F-111s back in. But even so, it was not until after Y195 (or after alt-Y200 over in the "dark future" timeline) before they truly came into their own as RTN-hunters.


With that in mind, I wonder if plans for Size Class 2 survey hulls might have been drawn up much earlier, to be dusted off (at least for use in the simulators) each time a change in circumstances warranted.

Say, for example, that once the first "Franz Joseph" DN entered service in the Home Fleet, someone in the Second Fleet might have sat down and worked out what a survey dreadnought variant would look like, in the event that they were able to acquire such a ship for their own purposes. (Had the Aurora system not vanished in Y130, the Federation would have expanded much earlier into the Survey Area than it did historically, perhaps raising the profile of the Second Fleet in line with its enlarged area of operations.)

As the various refits and upgrades were historically applied (or at least would have been in the absence of Chairman Buckner's reluctance to agree with Star Fleet's proposed procurement budgets), someone might have considered whether or not this proposed variant could follow suit - or, as was the case for the Federation old survey cruiser in Captain's Log #53, if the "spare" hull space used up for such refits had already been pre-empted in the initial survey configuration.

After Y195, perhaps the Second Fleet might propose such a conversion for use against the RTN. By this time, the production of new dreadnoughts would have fallen off to make way for more X-ships - but then, Star Fleet HQ might well argue that the money needed to proceed with such a conversion might be better spent fielding more GSXs and HWX-Zs instead.


Actually, in the case of the Paravians from Module C6, it's noted that their own raid motherships would have likely be converted into "combat" variants as combat conditions intensified along their Gorn and ISC fronts, in either of the "Mapsheet P" timelines, at least. (The "off-map" Paravians would still have needed them to support their ongoing raids into Gorn space.) But, in the event that the "Mapsheet P" Paravians were to take part in Operation Unity, I wonder if they might have considered converting one of their surviving DN hulls back into a RMS, where its added bulk could be leveraged for supply purposes.

For other empires, or at least those which sent an X-technology command cruiser to lead their respective Unity task forces, perhaps a similar "mothership" conversion might have been considered in a support role, if only in the simulators.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Monday, January 06, 2020 - 08:23 pm: Edit

Since this is an SSJ category, how about this for SSJ, An SSJ Battle Group

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, January 06, 2020 - 11:08 pm: Edit

What? Only ships that have been published in SSJ issues? Or only prototype ships from p modules? Or only captains log ships not included in a R module?

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Monday, January 06, 2020 - 11:15 pm: Edit

Nothing included in the R Modules, everything else is fair game. It could be outrageous. Maybe include conjectural to give empires a little more variety.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 06, 2020 - 11:51 pm: Edit

Suggested new empire for SSJ:

HydroTholian Cooperative.

In an alternate history, the Tholians arrive in the galaxy, but not in F&E hex 2230 but instead in the Hydran Old Colonies. Although helpless to resist the Hydrans (due to the damage state of the Tholian sphere), the Hydrans do not destroy them and instead assist the Tholians and form an alliance with them. This results (later in history) in limited web use by the Hydrans.

In F&E terms Hydran ships are treated as Tholian for web purposes. The Tholian economy and production schedule does not change, their ships keep the same factors but use Hydran weapons. Tholian 1st Fleet is offmap and releases under the same conditions as the Hydran OC squadron. Their other two fleets are joined to the Hydran 1st and 2nd Fleets. The Tholians have a SB offmap and on 0716. The NeoTholians arrive as scheduled, but in the Tholian offmap. The Seltorians arrive in the void area beyond the Hydran Old Colonies and are destroyed by the Cooperative.

This empire can be useful to give a boost to more inexperienced players in a game of Federation and Empire.

This proposal was something Michael Calhoon and I came up with a few years back.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 12:28 am: Edit

Dunno if a Tholian who is lurking behind a web with Fusions overloaded can be balanced.

Imagine a Wedding Cake with a squadron of Stingers.

You gotta dive into the outer layer to duel.
Once you do, 6 fighters fire 12 fusions and 24 Ph3 shots at you at range 2. Who can survive that?

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 12:29 am: Edit

I could see a Romulan/ Tholian alliance if the Roms discovered them IMMEDIATELY on arrival and made an alliance.

Tholians with plasma don't seem as unbalanced...

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 11:13 am: Edit

Richard, I'd need to go through the timeline in the Y-era modules. Did the Tholians arrive after the fall of the Hydran Kingdom? If so, how much of a threat would the Hydrans see them as being.

We do know from Hydran Canon history that the Guilds were (all too often) more interested in advancing their Guild interests more than those of the Kingdom as a whole. As such, it's entirely possible that the Hydran post-collapse Civil War just might involve the Tholians.

In the name of honesty, I've recently had cause to analyze a "Hydran versus Tholian" encounter; I had the Tholians and the Hydrans were one of the other folks in my group for the Battleforce 550 scenario.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 08:47 pm: Edit

The Tholians arrived in Y83.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 10:00 pm: Edit

Well, whatever works. The whole idea is to have a joint empire, because SSJ. In F&E giving the Hydrans webs would be lol.

The two species share one supply grid, Hydran units are produced at their 0617 shipyard (or otherwise as normal) and Tholians at the Dyson sphere (or otherwise as normal). Tholian and Hydran fighters are not the same (ship temperatures prevent easily carrying other species' fighters). Hydran and Tholian G factors cannot be carried on each others units outside of combat rounds (too difficult to support them for long periods due to hostile environments).

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Note that the original concept had the Tholians and Hydrans devloping a HYBRID Tholian/Hydran species able to exist in either environment (or normal Earth type environments). Of course the Hybrid species then wiped out the originals and all exile species (and that offmap species the Hydrans had conquered) because of course they did.