Archive through January 24, 2020
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
Hydran Tactics:
Archive through January 24, 2020
Well i did want to use the Knight+ instead of the Lancer+ but that did not add up to two equal forces. You could put a Traveler (TR+) instead of the LN+ in force one. You would have less fighters and more hell-bores in that force. You could also remove the HN and CU buy scouts going up closer to 550 points.
I wasn't sure if this should be asked here (since it involves the Hydrans in particular) or in another topic (since it includes aspects which go beyond the SFB tabletop); but I was wondering about the historical deployment of Hydran X-ships, and how sharply this may have been adjusted by the onset of the Andromedan War.
(Before I go on, I should apologize in advance if any of this has been addressed in the SFB Hydran Master Starship Book.)
In Module X1, it's noted that the Hydrans initially built two parallel types of X-ship, in keeping with the fusion+fighter/hellbore split they had been following since the latter weapon was invented. But while the fusion X-ships were noted to be very effective against non-X ships, they were much less viable against opposing X-ships - which led to further production being dropped outright in favour of more hellbore X-ships.
However, Module X1R includes a number of additional fusion X-ships for the Hydran fleet, some of which were noted in their respective R-sections as being built well into the Y190s. It is also noted that the Hydrans were relatively late in terms of fleshing out their full range of X-ship types, and that they never quite managed to get enough advanced technology into service to realize its full potential.
So, I was wondering: are fusion X-ships still reasonably effective against the Andromedans? Do displacement devices, temporal elevators, and other Andro parlour tricks combine to make them sub-optimal - or is there less of an in-game impact than one might imagine?
Alternatively, might the "late" production of additional fusion X-ships have an alternate explanation? Perhaps the Hydran economy was too strained at this time to reliably supply enough hellbore components to go around. Or perhaps the ongoing tension between the monarchy and the Guilds made it difficult for the Kingdom to optimise what resources it had available.
And from a game balance perspective, is it necessary for the Hydrans to depend at least in part on their fusion X-ships in a campaign, so as not to risk shifting the odds too heavily in their favour? Or to put it another way, would an all-hellbore X-squadron be a little too dangerous or its own good?
On a separate note, another key aspect of the Andromedan War was the use of the "X-raiders" to hunt down RTN nodes after Y195. But of the potential Hydran X-ship candidates for this mission in Module X1R, none seem to be quite ideal for the role; at least not when compared to some of the more capable X-raiders found elsewhere in the Alpha Octant.
Between the Vagabond-X and the Pegasus-X, which of the two might serve as the more effective RTN-hunter?
Not so much a tactics question, but making sure I'm right will drastically change my tactics, since it's the difference between a megafighter and an MRS: Is this a valid 150 point patrol ship?
Hydran Mongul: 100
5 x St-2: 50
Commander's Options:
5x Megafighter packs: 25
5x EW Pod: 5
Total 150 + 30 in options.
Alternatively, does the "carriers have 2 EW pods per fighter" clause and WS-III mean each fighter could be loaded with both of their EW Pods prior to turn #1? If so, I can use those 5 commander's option points for something else.
My plan is to plot sped 20 to impulse 18, then up to 30 (total movement 24) in the hopes that he doesn't expect the speed change and lets himself get too close. This is my first mid-turn speed change in 20+ years, so feel free to call me an idjit if my math is off or if it's just a bad idea. 
Fighters will have a total of 10 ECM (2 natural, 1 EW pod, 4 from EM, and 3 loaned by the Mongul). If they can have 2 EW pods loaded, I'll save a point of juice on the Mongul and only load 2, letting me go faster.
I have no clue what my opponent will be flying, so also feel free to toss out some alternatives if this is a bad idea against any of the alpha quadrant races?
Also, is it just me or is the MNG pretty sweet for 100 points? It can hold fusions, go 30, and still have 3 points left to play around with.
Bit hazy on carriers but those EW pods are NOT on the fighters (unless one is an EW fighter), just part of the fighter equipment in storage. Takes one deck crew action (32 impulses) to load one EW pod on a fighter but you do have 6 DC on the MNG (max of two DC on one fighter). Just don't forget that adding a pod reduces the fighters speed by one (J11.111), two pods reduces the speed by two.
At WS-III you get to have already completed deck crew actions, so they can have been pulled from storage and installed.
The speed reduction is partially why I paid for mega fighter packs. With the reduction their speed is still 26.
Stewart W. Frazier:
I am not aware of any rule that prohibits loading EW pods on non-EW fighters. In fact, the existence of the pod stockpile on carriers (FFVs) that are not authorized EW fighters means the EW pods to be used at all have to be loaded on the fighters. Pods are loaded by deck crew actions, and (R9.R4) says that Hydran Hybrid ships are "fully capable carriers" and that (at least in their case) the difference between a fully "capable carrier" and a "true carrier" is that a Hydran "true carrier" can operate heavy fighters (J10.0), which the otherwise "fully capable" Hydran Hybrid carriers are prohibited from doing.
So at WS-II (I am using this as an example separate from the WS-III issue) a Hydran Mongol could have two Stinger-2s fully armed and on patrol (all four fusion charges loaded and two pods of any type on their pod rails) and could have the (normally six fighters and six deck crews) could have each of the six deck crews have performed two deck crew actions on the remaining four fighters (12 actions on the four fighters). If it wanted, eight of those 12 actions could have loaded two pods on all four of the fighters, and two of the fighters fully armed with fusion charges (eight charges at a 1/2 deck crew action each equals two fighters fully armed). If the Hydran ship had purchased two extra deck crews with its commander's Options, then all four fighters would be fully armed (as fully armed as they can be made to be) on Turn #1 (each with a pod on each of its pod rails, and two fusion charges for each of its fusion beams, and the chaff system is always ready to go even at WS-0).
Mega-fighters would take longer to fully arm (two extra fusion beam charges per fighter, meaning one extra deck crew action is required to fully arm them).
However, at WS-III says simply that all fighters are armed, and four can be deployed near the ship. That "all fighters are armed" covers a host of sins because an Stinger-F takes nothing to arm (you do not need a single deck crew action), but a Federation F-111 ...
Now, fighters all have two points of built in ECM (J6.394) and (J4.47). An EW pod can be set to lend the fighter that is carrying it up to two points of Electronic Warfare, these can be both ECM or both ECCM or one of each (J4.961). A given fighter cannot have more than six (6) points of generated ECM (J4.91). Small target modifier (E1.7) is cancelled by erratic maneuvers, you cannot have both erratic maneuvers and the small target modifier (C10.48). Erratic Maneuvers does not interfere with the the unit doing erratic maneuvers being lend EW (C10.522).
So a fighter with two built-in ECM (it also has two built-in ECCM) and two EW Pods could have six (6) ECM and do erratic maneuvers for four more ECM for 10 total ECM and be lent four ECCM by the carrier for a total of six ECCM. The fighter might benefit from other "natural source" ECM (might be operating in an asteroid field for example), but cannot otherwise have any more generated or lent EW than six points of ECM and six points of ECCM (J4.91).
90% sure Hydran hybrid carriers get the regular load of fighter pods meaning 2 EW pods per fighter, one combat pod (phaser, chaff, ground attack, Seeking Weapon control), one cargo pod, and one auxiliary (another cargo pod or sensor pod).
You can buy more but that should meet your needs so no need to buy the EW pods. Note that the EW pods will slow your Stingers down.
For tactics it looks mostly sound unless you are at Weapon Status 0 or 1 in which case the fighters are empty. You can have the EW pods loaded on the ready racks at that weapon status but nothing more.
You cannot start out holding fusion beams though at any weapon status so you either need to arm them on the first turn or leave them empty. That may mess with your speed plot.
If your opponent has never fought Hydrans before and you are close enough I would charge in as you describe while launching fighters leaving the fusions on the ship uncharged. Once he empties his weapons close with the fighters and kill him.
If I saw you coming at me with megafighters launched I would take a shot with disruptors (assuming I am a traditional enemy) and turn and run like hell if it is a floating map and dump t-bombs hoping to hurt your fighters. If it is a fixed map I would accept that I am probably going to die.
Those 5 points get to be 2 commandos (converted from normal BPs) and a t-bomb to drop out of the shuttle hatch after the overrun and hope he walks into it. It's a shame I don't qualify for an EW fighter.
I read and reread the pods but when I started the math my old brain said "pods have 1 point of swing EW." So we're looking at 8 ECM and 2 ECCM prior to any loaning. I'll hold off on loaning until I know what's needed, but I'll still generate the 3. If he's not running any ECCM a loan of 1 point gives a +3 shift and the other two points will let the fighters fire without dropping EM.
I'd missed the "fusion beams cannot be held" part of S4.13. I'll leave them unpowered and use the extra three power for more of my own (probably ECM, but it depends on the enemy's race.)
I don't know what race, but we're doing WS-III, Y180, and a fixed map to ensure it's fast and bloody. It's a follow on to a historical scenario and we may not even have the time for it. Because of that, I'm expecting a single 150 point ship with a ton of firepower. Maybe a Fed with 4 photons. If so, The EW game depends solely on what he's running and how many batteries he has (probably 4). With luck the fighters could even be loaned enough ECCM to overcome their own erratic maneuvers. I may even do EM of my own to get in close. After all, what's a Fed. vs. Hydran battle without a massive explosion or two?
Of course, with my luck I'll have put all this thought into it and Incident on the WYN Border will run long so we don't get to do the patrol scenario at all. Then again, I'm running the Orions in that one and it would be really easy to make it be over in two turns. ;-) No, I'm not doing that.
Your fighters should not be worried about dropping EM. If they get to range 2 or closer successfully they can drop EM and fire. Even if the enemy ship retaliates on the same impulse you win if your five fighters get that close.
There are a couple of counters to your force. If I were Klingon or Kzinti or even a Fed and I know your combat force I am taking as many Spearfish drones as I can (assuming those are the ones with ADDs). Pack a bunch of them into a scatterpack if I have to and hope. With a Fed part of me wants to pop an overloaded photon into each megafighter but I doubt I can get more than one or two hits through the EW shift. I would probably shoot your ship at range 8 instead and hope the dice gods are kind and then run and figure out how to deal with the fighters as best I can.
If it's a fed, I'll probably go a little slower and max my ECM. Maybe even erratics to ensure a shift. +2 vs. photons is a nightmare for them.
I'm always on the fence about sending fighters first to protect my ship or the ship first to soak up damage and leave the fighters alive longer. That usually boils down to a judgement call and depends on the opposing race (fighters first vs. seeking weapons).
Starfish is the ADD drone (FD15). Note that it is a multi-warhead drone (FD8) which can not be loaded in a scatterpack according (FD7.12). I think Stonefish (FD17), the single ADD submunition variant, also counts as a multi-warhead drone and thus can't be used in a scatterpack. I am not positive on the last though; I haven't ever seen a Stonefish used.
Stonefish also cannot be placed in a scatterpack (FD17.253).
Right, I forgot about that restriction. I was thinking it was different than multi-warhead for some reason. I haven't fought Hydrans in a while and apologize for bad advice.
I will stick with my "plan to die" advice to your opponent.
They're still not a bad idea for a heavy drone race. We don't know each others' races yet, so it's unlikely he'll come in with that. Unless he's reading this right now. :D
I love the Hydrans. When we've got time for a longer fight with larger forces, I want to do some heavier Hellbore action. With only 150 points they were just too expensive.
Lyrans do well against fusion Hydrans on a closed map. Plasma can probably do well too.
Starfish drones are good against fighter using Hydrans (or non Hydrans) but if you are going blind against an opponent I think one would be inadvised to take those in lieu of other options.
If you can take _any_ empire, prolly take web caster armed Tholians and have the edge vs pretty much everybody.
SPP, I did say 'hazy' for a reason as I couldn't recall the enabling rule (back when J11 was added) for 'casual' usage … just that they were extra items onboard, of course my Hydran player used the first turn to add some to her fighters (very rare first turn launching)…
Stewart Frazier:
Sorry if the tone of my response seemed critical, it was not intended. It is a large game with a lot of options, and mostly we remember best the rules we use a lot. Not many of us, for example, could explain the rules for operating near a Nova, since few of us have ever played more than one such scenario (and some of us have probably never played even one involving fleeing from a Nova).
I haven't been on here long, but I've come to see that Steve's directness is intended to convey understanding, not offense. :-)
SPP, understood, just explaining what I remembered and what a quick glance at J11. Did forget that WSIII does give a blanket coverage for DC actions, though WSII give a limited (2-turn?) number of actions for the non-CAP fighters …
About to start the Captain's Game (U2.0) with my local group. I'm playing the Hydran.
The game takes place in Y160. My choices in ship are either the RN (4x St-1) or DG (no fighters). I decided to go with the DG because of the undersized warp engines (limited speed to get close for fusions) and limited repair ability in the campaign (fusion tactics result in a lot of damage). Even though I can't break speed 28, I'm pretty sure I can get in Hellbore range.
Would love some advice on how to take on the Klingon D7 and Lyran CA I will be facing for my two duels.
I'm curious, too. I can speak, but others have vastly more experience than me.
My advice would be to do your best to get in close on the Klingon and knock down a shield, then ping away with hellbores. It can't take a ton of internals and you'll strip weapons off fairly quickly.
For the Lyran, keep your distance open and always make sure to have a couple of hellbores ready for when he tries to overrun.
The only thing I can suggest is that, because of a lack of fighters, you might want to avoid the temptation to "Alpha Slam" your opponents.
TBH: I've never flown a RN with anything less than a full compliment of fighters, so I'm not a good one to offer advice. The closest thing to "Advice" I can give is that, IMO, the DG would likely be an easier ship to fly.
The standard Hydran tactic of "Charge in to point blank range, take their best shot, then blow them away" might work, but with your unrefitted engines, actually GETTING in that close will be difficult.
Only having four fighters will also hurt. You won't be able to tractor them with you; they'd be "Death Dragged" too easily. Launching them when you get to point blank range also isn't a good option; with only four of them, the post-launch delay before they can fire pretty much guarantees they'll be blown to smithereens before they can do so.
With the DG, I've always used the small number of fighters aboard as a means of dimpling a shield at long (for a Hydran fighter) ranges. Fortunately, even without them, you have options. You don't have Phaser-1s, so if you're planning on doing any long range the "Initial Strike," you may wish to use the "Direct Fire Hellbore" (E10.7) firing option to create a weakened shield.
You should also spend time with the sequencing rule (E10.44) before you take the DG in if you plan to use that option.
Floating map or fixed map? Also, are you using the Electronic Warfare rules?
While the opposing ships can hit speed 31, keep in mind that they are not refitted either in Y160, and so will have weaker rear shields the hellbores can exploit. The Lyran might consider cycling the ESGs, but does not have the power to do that and move at high speed with armed disruptors. But the fact that ESGs do function as shield against hellbores can get him into a position to over run you because you have to cycle the hellbores. The Klingon's drone should only really be a threat if the Klingon manages an overrun attack due to their maximum speed of 12 (type-II or type-V). However, keep in mind that the drones might have extended range, ad do not find yourself at Range 2 to a drone that has moved 24 hexes expecting it to just go away unless you are certain it will (or are prepared to deal with it, i.e., shoot it down or tractor it).
I will add that if your Klingon opponent is not to "seasoned," a straight-in overrun attack with overloaded hellbores can be devastating. The wrap around nature of hellbore damage (with implosion detonators armed) is almost guaranteed to drop his #4 shield, and then you can dump two phaser-Gs through it as you complete the overrun. The phaser-Gs will not be harmed on the way in (having RX arcs) and so be ready to fire. He will probably have launched any drones he had while you were on the way in to tie up your phasers (like I said, this can work against a Klingon who is not "seasoned").