Archive through March 19, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
Andromedan Tactics:
Archive through March 19, 2019
I can't remember what the threshold is for Disruptor PA leak damage, but with his inability to overload his disruptors, you should be able to easily stay at sufficient range to avoid his being able to reach that low critical level with single disruptor hits.
I think the only real risk (at least with the One-V-One fight) might be if he uses his disruptors in narrow salvoes, but you can still take six hits of those (hull hit first) before you have to start rolling on the DAC.
While it's true that your TRLs can't be guaranteed to do much to him out at those ranges, there's a chance that, with lucky dice rolls, you will do significant shield damage. If your dice rolls are like mine, well, at least he won't be damaging you either...
Okay, getting back to serious tactics, I also think that your CDR of PA degradation will probably exceed his ability to repair his shields with his CDR, so there is no real downside to minimizing the engagement.
For this reason, I would suggest using your speed to keep it a longer ranged duel and kill him with dozens, if not hundreds of paper cuts.
If/when you DO have him hurt, then you might want to consider an overrun from behind. At point blank range, your TRLs will do a REAL number on him. Your four Ph-2s will more than double it, and the only thing his ship will have that will be able to continue to threaten overwhelming your PAs, his disruptors, won't be able to fire at 0 hex range, and, if you want, once you've dropped a facing shield in an overrun, you can hit-and-run against one of his disruptors; an attack that can leave him unable to do anything significant against you.
Against the two ships, it won't be such a cakewalk. Same tactics apply, but you'll wish to orbit at greater range. If he splits his ships to try a pincer (unlikely, but possible; it's one of the few ways I can think of to trap a faster ship), you can take him up on his trap and go after one of the ships with more enthusiasm.
However, if you find yourself on the losing end of that fight, you can just disengage. He may score points for forcing a destroyer (
) to disengage, but it'll be (at best) a VERY hollow victory.
Thanks... I was thinking of a long-range grinding game, probably in the 12-15 engagement bracket, with a lot of ECM to cause as many disruptor misses as possible.
It'll be a long game, but I can use the DisDev to break up his formation, or to assist in getting range for a panel dump after a battle pass.
Jeffrey George Anderson:
Believe it or not, it pays to look at the SSD.
This is a Reconnaissance Cobra (CBR), it has only one (1) TRL. As a result, I would push in closer, the Range 4-5 bracket, but try to keep it no closer than 5. Range 4 is a break point for disruptors. If they hit, they do four points of damage, but at Range 5 they do three points, so both would do six points if they hit at Range 5, while the one TRL will average about seven and a fraction points of damage. Mike Dowd can use battery to make sure he has an edge in EW (and flip it if the Lyran is trying an all ECM strategy himself). So he can dictate almost everything about this fight.
The CBR against a single WCA should just be a massacre. Against the two WCAs, long range will take a long time, but you do not want them to hit you with all four disruptors, all eight phaser-2s and all eight phaser-3s, and maybe a pair of suicide shuttles (something to keep in mind if you go for an overrun).
RECONAISSANCE Cobra.
*BONK*
I saw the letters "CBR" and immediately thought it was a standard Cobra.
There is something that might make a difference in the One-V-Two fight; displacing one of the WCAs. If dice rolls go well, they might be separated enough so that you can conduct a battle pass and be out again before the two of them can regroup.
While less reliable than a self-displacement after a battle pass, it does have the advantage that you have distance (therefore time) to have other options, should the displacement fail. A failure on self-displacement when you NEED to get out of there will be far more consequential.
For some reason, the classic military thought of "Never fight a battle you don't HAVE to win" comes to mind. WHY is the CBR even fighting the Lyrans here?
Random 'Monster' roll in our early years F&E game.
It could be a very early recon mission to see if the area was worth invading, and to assess the strengths of the local empires to tailor an efficient force for conquering it later.
Jeffrey George Anderson:
But ...
Did not the mentions of the ship having a displacement device give it away? I mean, how many Cobra destroyers have you seen with their own displacement devices? (GRIN).
Also, I believe I mentioned the "try to displace one of the two WCAs" tactic in my initial response, or have I become that senile (again, said in all humor).
Mike Dowd:
It is science fiction, so there are other possibilities.
It could have fallen into a time warp (see the Federation cruiser battling with Gorn sublight battleships scenario, or the one about the Klingon FX traveling back in time, or the one about the Hydran RNX traveling back in time).
It could have been switched between galaxies by some power beyond our imagining (see the humans in the Triangulum Galaxy Module E2).
It could be that what you are seeing is an attempt to extrapolate what happened back then by a future period ("Well, it looks like it was using Andromedan technology, whatever it was, and a Reconnaissance Cobra pretty much approximates what we can make out from the log bouys the ships launched before they were destroyed").
It could be a last guardian of "The Old Kings" left behind and doing what it was programmed to do.
It could be some completely odd space monster not previously encountered, or since.
So just because it is a Reconnaissance Cobra in the (randomly generated) scenario, it does not automatically mean that it is in fact an "Andromedan Reconnaissance Cobra," just that it was some kind of phenomena that the ship(s) had to deal with.
Fixations are just one of those signs of my Asperger's/High Functioning Autism, and are the #1 reason why my tactics, in practice, seldom work.
(Besides, I've been fighting one heck of a migraine for the past few days. Yeah. That's it! That's the ticket!!)
... Oh, and remember, "Senile" is what people do on vacation in Egypt.
(Oh! Hi, Corporal!!)
(D10.332) Disruptor leak - When a volley does two points of damage per panel bank, the last damage point is (leaked) scored as internal damage. This leak is scored once per volley. [This leak is instead of, not in addition to, the reinforce panel leak of (D10.331).]
So, versus one WCA, as long as you stay out of Range 4, there is no chance of a disruptor leak on the forward panels, but a risk on the rear panels when you turn away. That risk, however, remains out to Range 15. So you could try to fight at Ranges 16-18, but given the average damage of a TRL at that range is only 1.67 points of damage, and that every other turn, you would effectively be at a stalemate, so you have to come in closer, I just do not think you need to ever get closer than Range 5, at least not before you have drawn at least some of the WCA's fangs (disruptors) and claws (phasers). Then you can polish him off. Just remember he does have the ability to do some repairs, so if you blow off one disruptor, it might be back when you close in the next time.
Range 5 TRL, average damage (assuming no ECM shift) 7.6. Potential maximum damage of 10.
Four Ph-2, same range (and ECM), average damage of 4.6.
Alpha strike average damage, range 5, 12.3.
This does NOT improve at range 4.
With a superior turn mode (A vs. C) and superior ability to reach higher speed, the Andromedan player can avoid having to get any closer, unless he's as bad at SFB as I am.
Joust situation.
Lyran. 2 DISR, range 5. Assuming no EW shift, 4 in 9 chance of two hits, 4 in 9 chance of one hit. 6 and 3 damage points respectively.
Phasers. Ph-2, as per Andromedan, 4.6 damage points with average dice rolls. Ph-3, assuming all four (centerline?), 0.6 damage points with average dice rolls. Phaser alpha strike average damage: 5.3 points.
Even when combined with the (less than 50% chance) of two disruptors hitting, it will not reach the 12 point threshhold for a point of leak damage.
Mind you, this is with no EW applied. With their reserve power, the Andromedan can shift it quite a bit.
With the Lyran facing a +1 penalty, the chances for two disruptors hitting goes down to 1 in 4, with only a 1 in two chance for even one hitting.
Phaser damage average drops to about 3 points of damage when facing a +1 penalty shift.
In an EW environment, I don't think even the two WCAs stand much of a chance.
BOTH WCAs, range 5, facing a +1 penalty, 1 in 16 chance for all four disruptors hitting for 12 points of damage, 1 in 4 chance for 3 of four hitting for 9 points of damage. Only possibility of exceeding disruptor threshhold. Threshhold must be exceeded six times before anything on DAC.
Offensive use of the DisDev to split up the Lyrans can keep this from happening; assuming no time limit, the Andromedan can just avoid closing any closer than nine hexes, should the attempt to displace one of the Lyrans fail (1 in 3 chance) and at that range, assuming the same +1 penalty to the Lyrans, there's only a 1 in 16 chance of the Lyran mass salvo reaching the threshhold for disruptor leak.
SPP, this comes from looking at SSDs (for once). You're quite right (as usual); I should do it more often
Jeffrey George Anderson:
As was said of Khan (paraphrase) "your tactics reveal two-dimensional thinking."
You have assumed that the Lyrans will only be able to fire at the forward panels which can absorb the Lyran Alpha strike. The Lyrans might hold their fire until you turn away, exposing your rear panels. If you closed to Range 5, and then turned away, you might immediately open the range to Range 6 on the turn away, but disruptors and phaser-2s have no drop off in the damage they can score from Range 5 to Range 8, but now they are firing at the three rear panels, not the four forward panels. And if you opt for an overrun, your phaser-2s get better, but so does the WCA's and its phaser-3s get better.
It is not just what the SSDs look like, but how the ships maneuver.
There are of course other considerations.
The WCA has 18 points of power, plus two batteries.
Maximum speed is 17 (16 warp plus 1 impulse). But this means no shields and no fire control (batteries could be burned for minimum shields and fire control, or for full shields and no fire control, for one turn).
Maximum operable speed (assuming batteries are not burned and all basic housekeeping, life support, fire control, and full shields, is paid) is 14. (One disruptor could be fired with the batteries along with any phasers charged on a previous turn.)
Maximum operable speed if one disruptor is armed (perhaps planning to use the batteries for the second disruptor) is 12.
Maximum operable speed if both disruptors are armed is 10.
Maximum operable speed if disruptors are not armed and all phaser capacitors are being refilled is 8 (10 if the batteries are burned).
Maximum operable speed if all phaser capacitors are being recharged and both disruptors are armed is 2 (four if the batteries are burned).
Note that the above is maximum operable speed, and obviously an announced lower speed could have a mid turn speed change planned, but if the Lyran is not firing everything at the Andromedan, he is probably not going to accomplish anything.
There is little power available in a hot fight to hold (much less arm if caught at a low weapon status) a suicide shuttle or two, and very little for electronic warfare. So it is very probable that both sides will adopt a "two turn" arming cycle. The Lyrans will fire all they can when the Reconnaissance Cobra approaches, and refill their phaser capacitors and do some shield repairs while the Reconnaissance Cobra is re-arming its TRL (and refilling its phaser capacitors, clearing its panels, and recharging its batteries for EW games). Then the WCA will arm its disruptors when the Andromedan is again ready to attack.
The Reconnaissance Cobra can approach on the oblique (meaning two of its phaser-2s will be out of arc), fire and announce erratic maneuvers so that when it turns its three box rear panels to the enemy (which is where the danger of leaks really is) so that it can have a shift of at least two versus any fire by Lyran ships on its weakest panels. But any attack run other than a straight on overrun is going to expose its rear panels, and while the Lyrans still have a forward shield they can take a few good solid shots at the rear panels, and have a good chance of punching the front panels if the Andromedan overruns before they are weakened.
To be clear, when you do the battle pass, you find out what the Lyran's EW rating is (he can max out at four), and you know he can probably shift it by two (drop two points to use his batteries to put up the opposite). Then you use battery power to set your EW to counter his as needed, making sure that with erratic maneuvers when you turn away you have an effective four ECM more than he can have ECCM, and so the shift when he fires at your exposed rear panels is two, not one. If you do not plan for this, he might (when you turn away) get a leak on your rear panels.
EDIT: And of course if he is running four ECM, you can set four ECCM to counter it from your batteries (after he has announced his ECM), run two ECM (also from batteries) in case he shifts his EW with his batteries, and still go to erratic maneuvers for four more ECM after you fire and turn away (stated more clearly). Yes, his use of the battery ship means that when if he fires at your forward panels there will be no EW shift, but the important thing is that he will have a two shift if he waits to fire at your more vulnerable rear panels as you turn away.
For those of you following this thread, this is what happens when a superior tactician (SPP) faces an overly enthusiastic idjit who only THINKS he knows it all (me).
In all seriousness, I (now) recognize that I fell into a classic trap; "Me too" firing, even if it isn't advantageous to do so.
Someone keeps their cool (SPP, in this example), he (or she) can undo the best plans by sticking to their own plan, and NOT doing what their opponent expects them to do.
Survive and succeed!
Jeffrey George Anderson:
I would not say I was a superior tactician. Just that you can look at the damage the two sides can put out and absorb. If the Andromedan centerlines me (to bring all four phaser-2s to bear), than he is pretty much running straight at me, and I have a pretty good chance in such a case of having both disruptors all four phaser-2s, and at least two of the phaser-3s to fire at him. It is pretty hard to "turn away" from a centerline charge (short a high energy turn), which tends to mean he will probably come closer than Range 5 before he can start opening the range again (assuming closed to fire at Range 5). If he does not turn, but continues right into me, I can hold my fire to the closest range. If he does turn, I may get the best of both worlds (a shot at closer than Range 5, and an angle on his rear flank shields, in this case power absorber panels).
Thus I tend to anticipate an oblique approach if he wants to keep the range open (only two phaser-2s in arc). Whether he continues straight by, or turns away, even at my slow speed, I should get a shot at the rear panels.
Understand, I pretty much know that if I were in command of the WCA, I would "die" this day. I am simply trying to put up the best fight I can, so that there will at least be "a nick or two on his paint job" to show I was there.
But note again all is not simple. If the Andromedan intends to fire at Range 5, he can close to Range 8 to my left front, fire his LS phaser-2s (there is no difference in the damage they will do at Range 8 then there is at Range 5), then turn to bring his RS phaser-2s into arc, and close to Range 5, fire the TRL and the two remaining phaser-2s, then turn to move away. He fires all of his weapons, with the TRL at the assumed optimum range for this "duel" (Range 3 would be better, but the WCA would really like a shot at the rear panels at Range 3).
If CO points are used, the CBR gets a couple of T-bombs and/or extra BPs, which he can use to good effect. I'm not sure what the WCAs can usefully spend COs on, apart from more guards.
The Amdromedan could go for a centerline charge and displace away (HET if displacement fails).
Richard, the displacement would be the perfect choice, but I posted earlier about using it to separate the two WCAs as part of the "Two vs. One" fight. In a one-on-one, oh heck yeah, I'd use the DisDev to get away after exchanging fire.
Also, as far as the HET goes, it wouldn't solve the problem of keeping the rear facing PAs out of his firing arc. Normally, yes, it's good to have one handy, but in this case it would only make the situation worse; the best way to keep the rear PAs out of the Lyran firing arc would be to try and circle around the Lyran, and get out of his disruptors firing arcs BEFORE he's able to get lined up on any part of the rear hemisphere, and that's NOT something easy to do.
Jim, I don't recall anything about BPV or COs being mentioned anywhere in this thread. You are, of course, quite correct with both sides (Andromedan and Lyran) and gave me another thought about the one-on-two fight; using the T-bombs and dummies to keep the second WCA from helping the first one.
Also, as I brought up the Andromedan using a hit-and-run raid against the Lyran Disruptors earlier in this thread, your point about the Lyran using more guards is potentially a good one for this fight.
SPP, although we've never had a match, just what's been posted in these chats shows you ARE the superior tactician (On the other hand, I am learning... ).
Seriously, that last post was meant to recognize what skill can do. By all reason and logic, I figured a decent Andromedan player, facing someone of my skill, could easily get away from the fight with a perfectly unmarked SSD. On the other hand, you showed that, facing a master, he (or she) will get a slightly bloodied nose. If they're assuming (quite a dangerous word) that they'll get off scot free, it can be an unpleasant surprise.
The HET would be to avoid a range bracket (if the Dis Dev didn't), and of course you wouldn't use the Dis Dev the way I suggested above against a pair of ships.
It is just me, but I doubt I would arm the displacement device at all in a one-on-one with a Lyran WCA if I were commanding a Reconnaissance Cobra. Power is not infinite, and I would rather use it for the, in this case, far more reliable electronic warfare edge. Displacement devices can fail, and tend to do so at the most annoying (and embarrassing moments). As I have noted in a much earlier tale of woe, a bad self-displacement to escape a completely unexpected launch of four plasma-F torpedoes resulted in my poor Python moving directly into them for the full eighty points of damage. I would have been much better off turning and running. I would still have been hit, and on the rear panels, but the plasmas would have run further, and been further weakened by defensive phaser fire (I had not fired them earlier because I was planning on jumping over the plasmas to hit the launching ship and then running the plasmas out).
As to using the high energy turn bonus, that runs into the problem that we are each thinking of the situation in our own terms. We know there are two battles, we do not know what the interval between the end of battle one and the start of battle two is. Burn your high energy turn bonus in battle number one and you may not have it back when battle number two starts.
So, I would plan on not using anything expendable during battle number one, since in my tactical estimate I do not need too to win. (Caveat, if there is a possibility of the other two ships arriving during the first battle, then things would be different.) That includes my Commander's Options (boarding parties, T-bombs), my high energy turn bonus, my continuous damage repair, and my emergency damage repair capabilities.
I respectfully suggest that dice do not fail at the most inopportune time, but rather with random frequency. Basing one's tactics on superstitious beliefs does not tend to optimal results.
Always with the negative waves, Moriarty SPP. Think the bridge DisDev will be there work and it will be there work. It's a mother, beautiful bridge DisDev, and it's gonna be there work. Ok?
There's a bridge (the card game) maxim, that if the cards have to lie a certain way for you to make the contract, assume that's the lie; and if the cards can only give you a problem if they lie in a certain way, assume that's the lie.
The corollary is that in bridge columns a finesse only works if it is the only way to make the contract.
Basically, SPP assumes he can win this fight without counting on a HET or displacement, thus risking serious damage on an unnecessary displacement roll is a bad idea. He'll take the safety play of never self displacing. Which is good tactics if he is correct that not taking a chance doesn't cost him anything much.
Saying the DD always fails when it's least convenient is incorrect, but if significantly advantaged in a fight without the DD, then you should plan as if the DD would always fail when most inconvenient, because there's no reason to take chances on it.
Basing one's tactics on minimizing random chance is hardly superstitious belief.
The fact that those times random chance had catastrophic consequences are among the most memorable events, i.e., the time three Federation ships unloaded 12 fully overloaded photon torpedoes on a Gorn destroyer at Range 2, and did not (even with firing all bearing phasers) even cripple it (was one point of internal damage shy of being crippled), and narrow salvoes were not involved, is a memorable event. (A dozen photon torpedo rolls, and the fantastical, highly improbable, nine rolls of "6" in a single impulse is a very, very memorable event). Only one photon in four of each firing ship hit, each on a different shield of the isolated Gorn destroyer.
Random chance happens, and I tend to favor tactics that minimize that chance.
Douglas Lampert:
On the high energy turn aspect, I expect to have (as the Andromedan in this situation) the available reserve warp power to execute one if needed. I simply am not planning to use one in a fight against a single Lyran WCA. Because as noted as long as I can manipulate the electronic warfare situation in my favor (and I can) I do not have to depend on such a maneuver to escape retaliation from a single WCA.
My "negative waves" comment above was meant to be facetious, as presumably everybody realized. But I will say this about the DisDev. It (and to a lesser extent the ability to launch/recover ships via transporter) is why I (as a Tholian by preference) regard the Andromedans as the scariest opponent when assaulting a webbed Tholian base.
The Seltorians, by comparison, rank only third. The second scariest empire (at least among those historically active in Alpha - though not necessarily historical enemies of the Tholians) for the Tholians is, in my opinion, the Hydrans.
I would be happy to discuss this further if anyone is interested in why I rank them that way. Contact me on the Tholian Tactics page.