I freakin' LOVE that skit!

Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Tai Kwon Leap. Approach me that you may see...



I did martial arts for like 2 decades. I've personally met Ed Grubermans...

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 04:21 pm: Edit

"I think Gregory means Plasma-F stasis boxes (FP2.41), (you may need to pay one point for holding the plasma-F)."

Ah, ok. Yeah, those aren't really optional equipment anymore. F torps just have a hold cost of zero. All the time.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Yup think Gregory means Plasma-F stasis boxes (FP2.41), (you may need to pay one point for holding the plasma-F)."

Is a Peladine thing prior to Y170.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Huh, really? The Peladine specifically don't have stasis boxes pre-y170? Weird.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 06:53 pm: Edit

believe me drove me crazy in the campaign I am playing.

By David Schultz (Ikvavenger) on Tuesday, February 19, 2019 - 08:59 am: Edit

This section hasn't been touched in a couple of years so I was hoping it was the appropriate spot under the 'other TC's' heading.

Our Battle Group (Tampa) is going to be playing an inter-group tournament, starting in March. We are going to use both Sanctioned and specific Unsanctioned ships. Specifically, Vudar, Borak, Frax, Peladine, Paravian and Carnivon. And perhaps Maesron if I can find the SSD for that tourney ship.

If there has been discussion on Carnivon Death Bolts I'm afraid I missed it. If not, I'd like to see others thoughts on the subject. I know the Maesron TM uses only a few options available in regular SFB play. This leads me to the DB. IIRC the unsanctioned Carnivon DB is explosive warhead only, S20 and damage 10. Any thoughts as to allowing it, on a limited basis, some of the mods used in regular SFB play?

For example, DB mods revolved around reducing the wearhead up to 6 points. Perhaps allow some/all of the DB's on a TC to use up to but no more than a 6 point reduction, at the player's option, for items such as anti-tractor, armor or focused burst.

If this has already been discussed I'd appreciate someone pointing me to the discussion. Much appreciated.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, March 28, 2020 - 03:01 pm: Edit

I wasn't sure which thread to put this in, but there was something which came up in this week's Talkshoe recording which I wanted to mention.

I was wondering what a "tournament" would look like if, rather than using the current crop of sanctioned tournament cruisers, it instead offered one or more historical Middle Years ship options per empire. As in, no new SSDs would be required - they'd all be using the ones published for historical use - but they'd be under the kind of Middle Years restrictions seen in "pre-refit" Star Fleet Battles, or over in Federation Commander: Briefing #2.

For example, the Lyrans would have their unrefitted Tiger CA, to include not having the capacitor refit. All drones (or Carnivon death bolts) would be "slow". The Hydrans would have no hellbores, reduced warp power, and be obliged to rely on Stinger-1s. In the case of the Romulans, if one were to allow them to use "post-Smarba" ships at all, they'd be limited to the War Eagle and the basic KR. The ISC would use the "CA-", as outlined in the latest revision to Module C2. And so on and so forth.

One might wonder where the balancing factor is in all of this. My argument would be that the point of this exercise would be to reflect the historical challenges faced by each of the Alpha Octant empires in the Middle Years era, in that each player would work to exploit their opposing ship's shortcomings while trying to mitigate those of their own ship.

Actually, getting the "lost empires" of SFB Module C6 would not be to difficult in this setup. The Paravian CA could be used as-is, minus the APR refit; while the Carnivon CA would be left with weaker shields and slower death bolts to manage.

Indeed, I think it would be neat to let the Feds use either an unrefitted CA or an OCA; or perhaps let the Kzintis try out the CAM from Captain's Log #50 as an alternate option to the CS.


Does that sound it might make for an interesting alternate setup? Or might it work better as a BPV challenge, akin to the squadron setup in FC tournaments?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, March 28, 2020 - 03:31 pm: Edit

Yeah, I dunno that there is a lot of percentage in a tournament where there are some obviously just better ships than others. I mean, yeah, sometimes people like fighting uphill for flavor or story purposes, but I can't imagine that you could make a viable, robust tournament out of a situation where if you take, say, the Kzinti CS with slow drones, you are going to be completely outclassed by the Fed CA or D7 or whatever.

Like, if you could fix things with Commander's Options or something, maybe? But there aren't many Commander's Options to use in the Middle Years era, especially if drones are all Speed 8 or Speed 12.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Saturday, March 28, 2020 - 06:22 pm: Edit

I can predict what would happen- One ship will be clearly better then all of the rest and the very best players will pick up on that and only play that ship

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Saturday, March 28, 2020 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Respectfully, Jack, I think we'd see a "Rock, Paper, Scissors."

Empire "A" would have a tournament ship that would defeat the tournament ship from Empire "B" some 70+% of the time, the tournament ship from Empire "B" would have a similar 70+% victory percentage over the tournament ship from Empire "C," but the tournament ship from Empire "C" would end up with a 70+% kill ratio over the tournament ship from Empire "A."

Maybe it's just me, but I think our friends in Amarillo have done a TREMENDOUS amount of work to make the tournament ships as balanced against each other as they are, and I'd suspect that any attempts to do another tournament set would involve a similar mind boggling amount of effort that might not bear the same sort of fruit as what we now have.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Saturday, March 28, 2020 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Jeff - unfortunately what I think could happen, happened in the past. The Andro was unbalanced and as such was nearly unbeatable and the best players gravitated to it. Now the current version is unplayable and I am glad. The Wyn Aux with a G1G1 package was unbalanced and again the best players gravitated to it. It again was too strong and had to be adjusted. These ships maybe were not that overpowered in the hands of a more average player. In the hands of a top 5 player they were almost impossible to defeat. In those situations, it wasn't rock/paper/scissors. Those ships won like 80% of the time against almost everything. You could predict the outcome of the tournament before it even started.

I suspect the same thing would happen again if the opportunity presents itself with another set of ships or if the current playtest ships are sanctioned too quickly.


I for one would really like to see more of the current playtest ships get sanctioned. I can't imagine figuring out another set of "tournament" balanced ships when we can't get a definitive response from ADB on how to get any of the current playtest tournament ships that have been around for like 15 years to become sanctioned for tournament play.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, March 28, 2020 - 11:38 pm: Edit

If running historical "Middle Years" ships against one another in the standard winner-take-all knockout format is a problem, perhaps an alternative in this instance could be to run an event as a round-robin; with each entrant playing all of the others at least once, and with the "league table" scored based on the standard victory conditions listed under (S2.2)?

That way, both players in a given matchup have the potential to add points to the board - and further, if one player chooses a more expensive ship than their opponent, they'd be handing over the difference in combat BPV if their opponent is still in the fight by the end of Turn #2.

That might incentivize players to be more careful about which choice of ship they select to command, and allow those who choose less expensive ships to still have something to play for.

As it happens, Prime Directive Federation notes that traditional duels on Andor are predicated on the premise that both the winning and losing sides receive a share of the prize being fought over, so as to maintain the overall balance of resources available to early Andorian society. So there is an in-universe precedent which could be invoked to explain a "Star Fleet Academy simulator event" where such a setup is actively encouraged.

And again, this is by no means intended to replace the standard tournament setup, but rather to offer an optional alternative that relies on historical SSDs and on standard victory conditions.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Sunday, March 29, 2020 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Tournament Ships were designed to be played under the tourney rules. The format was made so a game could be done quickly.

All this was because games were played face to face at a convention are some other venue. The fixed map and =ships. To be resolved in a couple of hours to make sure everyone played to get a winner. The first tactics for Duels were easy.

Make Your battle run fire when you think it is best and hope you do more damage to the other ship. The tactics have evolved so much now. It is just amazing to watch and try and figure out what the players are trying to do.

I have played a lot of duels using the full rules and standard victory conditions. (s2.2) With buying COs to reach the points needed to have =BPV.

As Jeff says above it would be Rock, Paper, scissors. Some ships are just a lot better against certain ships. Historical race match ups will be very close and fun battles. Non Historical can be very bad Mismatches. If You use the tournament rules some matchups get real unbalanced. Even with = BPV.

You can get on SFBOL and run a just for fun tourney like that. Set as a Round Robin every one plays everyone once. The one with the highest standard victory points wins. Even allow Disengagement. See if ant one wants to play

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 08:21 am: Edit

Yeah, I think Jack is pretty much dead on here. There would be some ships that were just better than others, and depending on what rules set was in use, some ships would be awesome some times and terrible in other times.

Like, assuming basic, middle years ships (off memory here, and it has been a while since I investigated these...):

-FED CA: 125 BPV, 4 photons, 6P1, 36 power.
-KLI D6: 113 BPV, 4 disruptors, 7P2, 2-ish drone racks, 37 power.
-ROM KR (as the WE is likely just terrible): 120 BPV?, 2 plasma G, 7P2, 37 power?
-ZIN CS: 113 BPV?, 2 disruptors, 2P1, 10P3, 4 drone racks, 33 power.
-GRN CA: 120 BPV, 2 plasma G, 8P1, 38 power.
-LYR CA: 125 BPV?, 4 disruptors, 2ESG, 4P1, 6P3, 37 power.
-HYD RN (?): Like, 150 BPV with 9 ST-I or something?

So of those, the Fed is likely devastating most of the time,as no one else can do enough damage at close range or middle range. The plasma ships are under incredible strains, as 2 plasma G's aren't scary, even with an anchor, and 1 plasma G, even if enveloped, isn't going to scare anyone off. The Kzinti will be hopeless on an open map (although no tournament can realistically use an open map, as that results in complete silliness); might be terrifying on a closed map (especially if it has 4 heavy drones in the racks), but it a complete one trick pony--go fast, get to R1, tractor, dump drones. But even then, the Fed might be able to demolish it at R2 (i.e. Kzinti is just about to get to R1; decel, blast, weasel to avoid tractors and drones on the map). The Lyran is actually pretty strong, as 2ESGs are just as good in Middle Years as later on, with fewer ways to mitigate it.

Like I think some of the ships are far and away just better than other ones. Especially given likely tournament rules in play (to make things workable).

I mean, yeah, as Greg points out, you could just run an event on SFBOL and see if folks play and what they take. I mean, heck, I'd even play to try it out.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 10:14 am: Edit

seems like any ship with P-1s would be pretty durned good

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 10:45 am: Edit

Likely, but I dunno that the Gorn, with the most power and the most P1s, is actually gonna be that good, for example.

Those weird arc plasma G's aren't gonna be real effective against either someone who can fight at middle-long ranges (KLI, LYR) or can come in close and clobber it (LYR, FED, ZIN). Heh, is seems like the LYR would be a killinator.

And the Hydran. What do you do with the Hydran? Send out a RN with 9 ST-I? If the Kzinti would be a scary one trick pony on a closed map, and I can't even imagine some form of the RN...

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 11:07 am: Edit

LM is end of middle years, or DG.

Heh.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 12:50 pm: Edit

Yikes! Heck, even an LC would be a pure murder machine :-)

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 12:59 pm: Edit

I think the Kzinti CC is a middle years ship. Would be a lot better than the CS for tournaments.

The Gorns are hosed, they don't have anything with better guns than the CA and that's just not enough.

Romulans and Tholians are hopeless. Orions probably end up with a CR which is gonna be problematic.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 02:52 pm: Edit

Ooh! Yeah, the ZIN CC is certainly available (to a limited extent) in the y150's or so. But it'd also be a killer relative to the rest of the ships (if you are using the ZIN CC, you'd probably move up to the Fed CC and I think the D7C is around then too, at which point, we are just back at regular TCs, but with slow drones :-)

Maybe the ZIN CA would make sense? It has 4 disruptors (but still with the bad arcs) but otherwise is the same as the CS, IIRC.

Yeah. the Gorn pose a problem. I mean, of the ships listed above, it has the most power (38), the most warp (32), the most shuttles (6), and the most P1's (8), but I still suspect that those two, walley eyed G torps just won't do enough to avoid getting cornered and mangled by even a Fed CA.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 04:47 pm: Edit

Lyran CA doesn't have ESG capacitors iirc.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Let the poor Roms use a WVL 120 BPV 2 plas R 6PH1 30 warp 2APR and 9IMP. 41 power.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, April 01, 2020 - 11:23 am: Edit

For what it's worth, I had been thinking of suggesting the following Middle Years options for Alpha Octant empires, provisionally at least:

Federation: Heavy cruiser (125), old heavy cruiser (126),
Klingon: D7 battlecruiser (121),
Romulan: War Eagle (100), KR (115),
Kzinti: Strike cruiser (116), Middle Years cruiser (116),
Gorn: Heavy cruiser (120),
Tholian: Cruiser (120),
Orion: Heavy cruiser with no cloak (127), raider cruiser with cloak (110),
Hydran: Ranger + 9 Stinger-1s [93+(9*8)= 170],
Lyran: Tiger heavy cruiser (131),
ISC: Star cruiser (132),
Paravian: Heavy cruiser (120),
Carnivon: Heavy cruiser (130).

To clarify, the ISC "CA-" is from the most recent revision to Module C2, which removes the PPD prior to Y168 (as in, the ship had two plasma-G torps only).

Now, over in Federation Commander: Briefing #2, the Hydrans tend to have somewhat fewer Stingers than in SFB. For example, the Middle Years Ranger Ship Card has only six Stinger-1s instead of nine. Whether that is enough of a precedent to do something similar here, if it was necessary to do so, is another matter.

And yes, the Middle Years Lyrans have no ESG capacitors, though I wonder if that might be more of an issue in FC, where the ESG works quite differently than in SFB.

Also, if using the standard fixed tournament map is an issue, an if an open map would also be a problem, perhaps one could use a location map focused on, say, a class-M planet. (Or a gas giant, to make things more interesting.) Pick a certain distance from the planet at which the ship is considered to have disengaged, and that might allow for a somewhat different amount of room for both sides to maneuver.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, April 01, 2020 - 12:26 pm: Edit

If anyone is gauging interest I would play in a tourney like this if I thought the game could be finished in about the time it takes to play a tourney game now.

My vote would be a fixed map but am open to the idea of a different shape of some sort. The idea of a planet sounds interesting. Maybe some other kind of terrain might be worth considering, maybe.

Using ECM or hidden commanders points would be a turn off for me, especially ECM. I think it really does nothing but make the game take much longer- my 2 cents.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, April 01, 2020 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Mike wrote:
>>Lyran CA doesn't have ESG capacitors iirc.>>

That is true, but also probably mostly irrelevant; ESG capacitors tend not to do that much in a duel. Hydrans can't hold fusions either, which also probably doesn't make much difference.