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BTW, the Invasion starts around Y190 IIRC, Y195 is when the GPs start to fight the network (and Unity is Y200-Y202) …

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, May 09, 2020 - 02:29 pm: Edit

One thing that might be wort considering is how fast - or rather, how far - each generation of base hull may travel in Federation and Empire terms.

A "modern" (GURPS Prime Directive Tech Level 12) ship can move as far as six F&E hexes via operational movement ("cruising" under its own navigation). When using strategic movement ("dash warp" along pre-prepared routes marked by locator beacons), each "strategic movement node" (a major planet, starbase, etc.) must be no farther than six hexes apart, plus the ship must start and end its strategic movement on a friendly SMN.

A "fast" ship (which more or less counts as "GPD TL 12+"), such as a Federation light dreadnought, can move as far a seven hexes via operational movement, yet still has the same strategic movement as a non-fast ship.

However, not only may a first-generation X-ship (GPD TL 13) move seven hexes a turn via operational movement, it has strategic movement benefits as well: it can begin strategic movement in a hex adjacent to a friendly SMN, end it as far as two hexes from another friendly SMN, and each SMN may be as far as seven hexes apart.

However, in all cases, a ship out of supply can move no more than 3 hexes via operational movement if out of supply.


So far as how this might apply to RTN-hunters, a non-fast ship (such as the Kzinti SSCS) would be slower than either a "fast" ship (should one of those be converted to carry out this task) or an X-ship if moving under its own navigation - say, if charging towards a recently-discovered RTN node. "Fast" ships and X-ships would be about as fast either way.

However, if the owning empire finds itself needing to re-deploy one or more of its RTN-hunters from one corner if its territory to another, the "fast" ship is no better than the non-fast ship - but the X-ship really stands out in that regard.

This is of no little importance: with so many Alpha Octant bases having been destroyed during the General War and ISC Pacification, plus those taken out by the Andromedans themselves (such as the Romulan starbase Sanguinax) by the time the RTN is uncovered, minus those bases which the surviving powers had managed to replace (or build in new locations) and which themselves had not been destroyed as of Y195, leveraging those strategic movement nodes the Alpha empires had left in order to prosecute an anti-RTN campaign was of critical importance.

Indeed, as shown in the "dark future" timeline data in SFB Module C3A, it was fortunate that the Darwin was able to report its findings when it historically did: by the time the alternate timeline empires learned of the RTN, it was far more of an uphill struggle to try and do anything about it.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, May 09, 2020 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Gary,

I read in one my SFU products that a DN -class ship can get to a location faster than any other ship except fast ships and X-ships. I haven't been able find it again. So I did not include it in the background for this proposal.

X1R has the X-ship RTN hunters. The Federation has 1 hunter Colin Powell (GVX). Klingons the Rover Redoubt (D5PX).

The Romulans seem to have the most: 3xSPEX; 3xSPUX; 1xFHEX (probably the best X-RTN hunter). Kzinti has: 2xCMPX; 3xCMSX (note several were destroyed before support arrived).

The Gorns have: 1x HSVX; 2x HDPX. Tholians had 1 CWPX.

Orion Cartel had 1 PFX that was used to misplace node rather than destroy them. The Hydrans have: 3xVDX; 2-4x PGX.

Lyrans have 3xCWPX ships. The ISC have: several modified CLSX; 2xPFTX.

That is around 24 ships. Most RTN hunter were built on a X-war cruiser hull. Any of the proposed SC-2 RTN hunter ships would destroy a X-PFT build on x-war cruiser hull. Further the standard technology ships did most of the fighting as there weren't enough X-ships.

The second point the SC-2 ships proposed here carry more attrition than even a CX. The attrition units gave these ships the edge to survive until support could arrive. This is one of several areas that X-cruiser made a difference. The other positive impact of X-technology are XP refits especially of ships directed hunting the RTN.

In closing I am not against what you are posting but it will get lost here. I would like to see you open up a separate topic on the issues you have raised here. In fact I hope you can add more detail to your Captain's Log 49 article. We all have many question. You have the talent to research and find answers.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, May 09, 2020 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Bear in mind that the advanced technology heavy war destroyers in Module X1R may also be assigned roles which permit them to act as RTN hunters. The Federation can use what is provisionally listed in Federation and Empire terms as the "-Z" configuration (with special sensors in the RA OPT mounts and fighter mech links in the non-weapon option boxes so as to deploy a "short squadron" of four F-111s); other empires can use their PF tender configurations. That said, not every empire's HWX is overly effective in this role.

Plus the Federation has access to the GSX from Module X1; the year-in-service dates for the five named ships of this class are listed in a class history article in Captain's Log #41.


The point I was getting at was that while there is certainly something to be said about what a Size Class 2 RTN-hunter can contribute to the mission tactically, it might be worth considering how this might balance against the hull's ability to reach the target node before it can be moved, or its ability to be re-deployed from one search zone to another. (And yes, I say this even with my own proposal for the DNL Star Lion in mind.)

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, May 09, 2020 - 11:47 pm: Edit

I do agree that without X-ships and the X-hunters the Andros might have won. I think there needs to be more CX class RTN hunters for all empires.

We also do not have many Andro scenarios outside of Andros attacking. In other words the history from 192 to 200 is lacking.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 12:12 am: Edit

Probably because the Andros are fairly terrible at defending a RTN base against a big attacking force.

Most such battles are going to be lopsided and don't make a good scenario.

There can be noteworthy exceptions of course. Perhaps someone might write such a scenario.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 02:54 pm: Edit

That said, there remains the question of supply, in terms of how this might affect the Alpha Octant empires in the Andromedan War.

In regular (pre-Andro War) Federation and Empire, supply grids are networks of friendly bases and planets. There is a difference between main supply grids (those connected either to the empire's capital hex or to their off-map area for those empires which have them) and partial supply grids (which are cut off from one or other type of main supply grid through enemy action).

Ships are always considered to be in supply if they are in the same hex as a base or planet, even if they are in a partial supply grid. However, there is a limit to how many ships in a partial supply grid which are neither in a base nor planet hex which can be kept in supply. Ships which are not in supply have their movement and attack (but not defence) factors reduced by half.

In a "traditional" campaign, this may happen as a result of sweeping movements by large numbers of enemy warships - say, if the Coalition cuts off a portion of Hydran space from both the Old Colonies and from Hydrax itself during their invasion of the Hydran Kingdom early in the General War. But even then, a Hydran player might expect to see such fleets of Klingon and Lyran warships jump the border, and thus prepare to be eventually obliged to start over in the Hydran off-map zone.

But in the case of the Andromedans, there is no "front line" behind which one can operate more or less safely. In the case of the Hydrans, they have to think in reverse: the capital planet would be the most secure location from a direct Andromedan attack, whereas the rest of Hydran space - to include the Old Colonies - are the areas in greater danger. But given how much trouble there is in getting supply convoys through without being disrupted by Andromedan raids, even the ability of Hydrax itself to supply a stockpile of warships indefinitely might eventually be called into question.

So, while this dynamic remains to be fully examined in F&E terms, it might be possible that, by the time the question of going after the RTN is being raised, the number of warships which a given empire can in fact maintain in supply so as to destroy the larger Andromedan bases (plus any Motherships and/or monitors in attendance) once they are found would itself be somewhat limited.

Or to put it another way, while the various empires might be able to assemble more traditional battle fleets in order to destroy an Andro battle station by Y200, it might have been much more of a challenge to do this in Y195. (Or, for that matter, to start the process in alt-Y200 over in the "dark future" timeline.)

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, May 10, 2020 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Gary,

See (R1.95) Fast Naval Transport, Module R12.
"It was too easy for the Andromedans to isolate a planet that they had decided to occupy from the rest of the supply grid, but the Fast Naval Transports were able usually able to reach planets to bring the vital materials they needed to maintain their defensive strength.". With the Free Trader X and Armed Priority X-transport these 3 ships would help maintain the supply grid.

An Armed X-Freighter both large and small would also help.

Module C2 page 29 "at the height of their power (Y197), the Andromedans had reduced the Romulan, Gorn, ISC, Lyran, and Hydran Empires to a small area around their home system (perhaps s dozen 500 parsec hexes on the Federation & Empire map). The other races were also under considerable pressure and had suffered less only because the Andromedans had not attached them yet (and due to the shaky Federation-Klingon alliance).

I would say the Federation, Klingon, and Kzinti had not been attached in force.

(R10.3) Intruder Cruiser: This class represents the majority of large ships observed in our galaxy.

In Y195 scenario SL098 (CL#6) Klingon B10 and the Federation SCS Napoleon battle 2 Dominators. I believe the 2 Dominators are destroyed as is the Napoleon. I think that battle disrupted the invasion of the Klingon and federation empires.

I think what we see is the supply grid shrinks in toward it's core.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 01:06 am: Edit

One Dominator in that scenario escaped.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Richard,

Thanks.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 03:04 pm: Edit

This discussion seems to have wandered a bit (first time in the history of the internet that's ever happened...) from its original consideration of a new class of ships. I think this evening I will propose my Tholian suggestion for a heavy RTN hunter (replace the Command Module of the Neo-Tholian Space Control Ship with a CM that swaps out the webcaster and a phaser-1 for two special sensors) in the "Tholian Proposals" section.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Be sure to file it under 'things the Tholians WISH they could build'. :p

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Richard,

I don't understand. Why couldn't the Tholians build it? R7.61 states that the Tholians could replace a destroyed CoM, but with disruptors replacing the web caster until such time as the Tholians develop the capability to produce web casters in this galaxy. I'm proposing that instead, they build a new "RTN-Hunter" CoM that replaces the web caster and one phaser-1 with special sensors, and then attach that special CoM to the NSCS rear hull. What is there about this that they couldn't actually build?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 03:44 pm: Edit

Napoleon survived the scenario also.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Respectfully, Alan, while it is true that the Tholians could probably build the new type of command module you're talking about, it has been established that the only Neo-Tholian ships they're willing to allow outside of Holdfast Space are light cruisers, and even then they do so only on rare occasions AND with a heavy compliment of "Expendable" PC hulled derrived ships accompanying them.

This is why, for my 0.02 Quatloos worth, I honestly believe that the Tholians would consider a ship like this to be low on a priority list. Before they'd even think of building it, they'd want to have a production line for all three categories of large Neo-Tholian rear hulls (DN, CA, and CL) humming along; something I think even the most ambitious of engineers among them AND the most aggressive long-term planners would regard as a pipe dream.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 05:39 pm: Edit

My bad vision saw CW instead of CM, my bad.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 06:43 pm: Edit

Why would the Tholians sacrifice a WC instead of a Disructor?

Cast web is useful in making the Andros use their disdev at YOUR tempo, not his

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 07:43 pm: Edit

To answer the responses in reverse order...

Mike: The Tholians have only limited ability to modify Neo-Tholian hulls. But they can produce CoMs. The easiest way for them to produce a "heavy' RTN Hunter is to add a modified CoM (with special sensors) to the NSCS rear hull. That NSCS rear hull still has two web casters in its own right. And they can easily convert the ship between an RTN hunter and a conventional Space Control Ship by swapping CoMs. By comparison, sacrificing disruptors would mean modifying the engine nacelles on the rear hull itself. Not only would this take longer, but the ship could not easily or quickly be converted back, if that's what the situation called for.

Richard: No problem. It's probably partly my fault for referring to the Command Module as the "CM" instead of the correct term, "CoM".

Jeff: But this ship isn't intended to operate outside of Tholian space anyway. It's purpose is to help defend the Holdfast against Andromedan incursion. As already pointed out, it can very quickly be converted between NSCS and RTN Hunter roles as the situation dictates, by swapping CoMs. That doesn't even require a shipyard. It can, in fact, be performed in open space. The NSCS performs its normal role while the RTN Hunter CoM is built on Tholia. If the Tholians become concerned about Andromedan incursion and establishment of RTN nodes in Tholian space, they fly the modified CoM (under its own power, but heavily escorted to prevent the Andros from intercepting it) out to the NSCS location and make the swap. The resulting ship is an excellent RTN hunter, not quite the equal of the the Kzinti SSCS (for my money, the undisputed heavyweight champ of the hunters) but probably about as good as the Romulan Firehawk-EX or Federation GVX. While not as technologically advanced as those ships, it is larger and more durable, it has two web casters, and it has a full PF flotilla as well as fighters. Those fighters probably aren't that useful against Andros but the Tholian PFs are absolutely first rate. And as already stressed, it can be easily converetd back to the NSCS when the strategic situation changes.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 07:53 pm: Edit

The summary got lost. Anyone have comments?

(R2.XX) The Federation recognized the limitations of the division control ship class. A dreadnought heavy carrier (DVA) was converted to what amounted to a heavy division control ship by replacing 2 photons with 2 special sensors. The conversion was completed in Y185. The ship was named a dreadnought heavy control ship (DVAS).

(R3.XX) The Klingons concerned that the Federation and Kzinti's were building what appeared to be a heavy division control ship converted a C8S. They replaced the two disruptors on the center warp engine with Special Sensors. The ship's own integral firepower is now heavy cruise-level. But it still has dreadnought-level shields and durability. (by Alan Trevor)

(R4.XX) The Romulans by Y184 were essentially bankrupt. They may have converted a Phoenix SCS by replacing the plasma Fs with special sensors.

(R5.XX) The Kzinti CVA was converted to a space control ship in Y181. Most surviving DNs and CVAs were converted by Y186. In Y 185 two special sensors were add to the forward part of an SCS. This ship was the forerunner to the SSCS.

(R6.XX) The Gorns added a heavy dreadnought bubble to an SCS and replaced the wing plasma Fs with special sensors in Y 186.

(R7.XX) Neo Tholian ship: The Tholians created or rebuilt a command module with 2 special sensors. This command module was attached to the neo Tholian rear hull. (Alan Trevor)

(R11.XX) The lyrans replaced the center disrupters on a SPS with special sensors.

The Hydrans and ISC built X-ship RTN hunters.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 08:03 pm: Edit

Joe,

You say "The Hydrans and ISC built X-ship RTN hunters." But any given empire could build both X-tech and standard-tech RTN hunters, depending on the situation. In fact, most empires did build both X-tech and standard-tech RTN hunters. Why wouldn't the Hydrans and ISC at least consider building both? Maybe in some cases the ship would be an "Unbuilt Variant". But I can't believe the Hydrans, for example, wouldn't at least have examined the possibility of basing an RTN hunter on their SCS.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Alan,

There is no reason that couldn't. I just figured that their empires were hammered hard by the Andros and would put there limited resources into X-ships.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 11:22 pm: Edit

Is there any way to judge which option is superior?

I mean, if both non X ships can do the job just as well as X ships do, Then the decision point comes down to economic cost.

If X ships can be more efficient (takes less time) or more effective (needs fewer BPVs) to accomplish the task, then you could make an argument that paying for X ships to hunt RTN nodes is better.

If both options work about as well, then there is No point in differential battle forces.

Off hand, I haven’t seen any data that proves the case either way.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, May 11, 2020 - 11:53 pm: Edit

X-ships do not have the firepower of such a unit while still carrying attrition units. Strategically, they are faster and have more range and are better suited when used as reserves.

Generally, DN class vessels can not be used for military raids (in an F&E sense) and are generally not risked as a solo unit.

DN class units have a surcharge and cost more than their combat factors would indicate (in F&E terms), something that is not the case for X-ships, and generally X-ships can be produced at a greater rate than DN class ships can be.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - 12:41 am: Edit

Richard,

Thank you for the comments. Your first sentence captures the proposals basis.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - 05:08 am: Edit

Richard, Jeff, Joe;

I don't think the decision point does come down to economic cost/BPV. I think it comes down to availability and time. It probably doesn't make sense to build an SCS-based RTN hunter from scratch. The problem isn't the cost, in my opinion; not when the very survival of the empire is in question. It's the time needed to build the ship. BUT if you already have an SCS that you can quickly convert by swapping out a couple of heavy weapons for special sensors, that's a different matter. Your new-construction RTN hunters, on the other hand, are probably based on X-cruisers because an X-cruiser, while expensive, is probably quicker to build. In F&E everything takes the same time to build (other than a battleship). But I think this is an abstraction for game purposes.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - 10:44 am: Edit

Alan,

I agree. Perhaps I haven't been clear in my comments. I reviewed X1R there around 24 RTN hunters, most are X-war cruiser PFTs. Most empires have SCSs. So I think these would be easy to convert once the reality of the Andro war becomes apparent.