Defensive refit for CL/FF
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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R05: KZINTI PROPOSALS:
Defensive refit for CL/FF
Fluff: The first Kzinti carrier groups lacked purpose built escorts, instead using standard CLs and FFs. To help protect the carriers, the Kzintis gave some of these ships a variation of the standard refit. After aegis escorts became available, these ships were either converted to aegis escorts, or reassigned to non-escort duties.
Proposal: FF refit similar to + refit, but adds ADD instead of Drone. CL refit adds ADD instead of Drone and PH-1 instead of Dirsuptor.
Note: This not an attempt to replace aegis escorts with standard warships (with heavy weapons). These ships would only be in Kznti carrier groups before aegis escorts were available.
The Federation had a similar choice, they in the actual event elected to use drone G racks (for obvious reasons, able to mix munitions (type I, IV, VI, ADD rounds.).
I could see ADDING a ADD on a Sponson, but the Kzinti line ships depend on drones for Offense, Defense as well as a “damage sponge” (to soak up enemy phaser fire... every phaser used on a drone is one less phaser used to inflict damage on Hegemony ships.)
Even though it violates doctrine, in an emergency (such as attacking an enemy with significant drone launch capacity...) an enterprising ship captain might finagle a streak fighter SAS to provide additional drone defense.). You *** might*** even see a squadron commander, on a special mission, swap several admin shuttles for SAS or (depending on the year) AS.
*note:I include such an idea only as a hypothetical concept. Under most circumstances you will not see non carriers carrying fighter types. Might even be less common than having a MRS onboard one or more ships.
Jeff(rey), Jeff, please remember that, historically, the most frequently fought enemy for a Kzinti ship was another Kzinti ship.
Jeff(rey), for that reason, I think the idea has a great deal of merit, and reminded me of the comment about the Federation DE (R2.14), "Line admirals were constatnly trying to 'borrow' destroyer escorts for use in fleet combat squadrons, but the extremely limited number... Made this impossible." 
Jeff, I had an email conversation with SPP before joining the discussion group where I suggested a version of the Kzinti FF that had sponsons on the rear hull (where the DF has the additional drone racks) that were Tholian-style external fighter bays. It was (rightly) shot down, but when I think about that and the small number of ADMIN on any given Kzinti ship*, I suspect that having SAS replacing ADMIN would probably be as rare as the deployment of MRSes, and the latter have much greater value for a given ship or squadron.
(*I'm not a Kzinti player, but IIRC, a Frigate has only one ADMIN and a CL only has two. If I'm wrong, I do apologize, and admit that the regular quantity of egg I find on my face might give me a serious case of cholesterol poisoning...)
JGA:
You are making a fundamental error. This proposal is not a historical reference on all of the Hegemony history. JNC is proposing a refit for early carrier escorts (YIS 164 ish, if I am guessing correctly.)
That means It has nothing to do with all Kzinti on Kzinti Combat prior to year 164(ish) events.
Just because I personally could see the Kzintis adapt a sponson mounted ADD refit does not mean that ADB would recognize what a great idea it is. The Steve’s decide Those things.
You also assumed (incorrectly) that I was talking about the Kzinti frigate, and only the Kzinti frigate. I was making a general point about Kzinti doctrine and policy. At no point, did I specify that only Kzinti Frigates should adopt streak fighters or MRS.
Respectfully, JSW, I think it's a problem with bad communications.
(They happen. )
I recognized that this wasn't a "Full History Reference," but I also recognized that, at the brief time period we're talking about, Kzintis had spent more time fighting each other than outside forces. Even though I'm not a Kzinti expert (by ANY standard), I do recognize that, once after the time period we're discussing here, the General War exploded; an event that totally swung the ratio of "Civil Wars vs. Outside Threats" towards the "Outside Threats" end.
I also recognized that these ships were meant to serve a role more akin to what their Klingon rivals used E3Ds as "Consorts" (if you will) for their earliest carriers.
Respectfully, with regards to the Streak fighters, the only time I mentioned ship classes, my statement was "... A Frigate has only one ADMIN and a CL only has two."
I suspect that, had I stated something like "Admin shuttles can be used for SO much more (scatter packs [with MORE drones than an AS], Marine transport, science platform, etcetera) than can the Streak Shuttle that the Kzinti High Command would probably reject using this idea," we'd not have had the communication problem.
(Like I said, communication problems happen. )
Really?
Seriously(said VERY doubtfully).
Ever hear of something called “the Four Powers War”?
Open warfare between the Kzintis vs the Combined might of the Lyran and Klingons (the Hydrans were co-belligerents, at best.) clearly not An example of a “Kzinti Civil War.”
And IF this proposal of JNC’s were accepted and published, you would have the mainline warships of the Kzinti Hegemony go toe to toe with the Lyran and Klingon Battle fleets armed with ADDs instead of Drones?
What you are again failing to recognize is that JNC’s proposal ONLY fits between year 164 and Fall 168. A time when the Kzinti Hegemony was desperately trying to recover from the devastation of the four powers war.
Sure, you could propose a Kzinti Civil War during that 4 1/2 year period, but SFH (Star Fleet History) seems to indicate the Kzintis were busy converting the fleet (and star bases and battle stations) to wide spread fighter (and to some extent, at least, Bomber) technology. An absolutely HUGE portion of the GNP (Gross National Product) was devoted towards that conversion.
Heck, just look at the ship production schedule from F&E for the Kzinti Hegemony. They were building (or converting in the case of the CVL and CVE carriers) no less than 14 carriers (more if you add in the Carrier pods of the tug class ships and IIRC the survey ships.) not to mention adding fighters to 5 star bases, 10 BTS, and heaven alone knows how many PDBs.
The Kzintis were too busy to fight amongst themselves. They knew the Klingons and the Lyrans were arming for another war. The Kzintis are too smart to fall into the trap that led to the Carnivon Extinction.
Hey Jeff, you might want to dial down your aggressiveness down a bit. Just sayin'.
Anywho, you analysis is all well and good, but it's canon that Kzintis built with a philosophy of fighting each other when things like the CS (and its predecessors). It wasn't until the general war was coming around that they really addressed this issue.
Their civil wars is exactly how the Wyn Star Cluster came to be populated............
Richard and Mark:
And both of you just confirmed the point I was trying to communicate to JGA.
I do not dispute that historically, the Kzinti hegemony was unstable.
But this proposal by JNC is easily recognized as being in the brief period of Peace between the 4PW and the GW. Normal cycle of internal wars does not apply.
The point of my referencing the Kzinti preoccupation with their frequent Civil Wars was to provide a historical reference for why they'd be inclined to consider a refit like the ones Jeff and Jeff posted on.
If they were giving more weight to the outside threats, the Klingons (who used drones on a much lower level than Kzintis), Lyrans (who used NO drones, outside of their own, as of yet, non-existing carriers), the Carnivons (who were no longer a threat), and the Federation (who by this time had retired W-era Andorian vessels and were, like the Lyrans, not using drones at the time period in question), then WOULD they make use of a refit like this one?
Admittedly, there were pirates, but I doubt the Patriarch would consider them so much of a threat that he would authorize a refit like this one to deal specifically with them.
Jeff-W: I'm going with ADD instead of Drone-G because if this refit was better for general combat (e.g. duels) than the Drone-A of the + refit, the Kzintis would adopt the defensive refit as standard instead of the historic + refit. ADD and PH-1 make sense in the context of defending a carrier, and can add a useful defensive abilit to a squadron or fleet. This is not intended to be used on every FF and CL in the fleet. Also, being different can be more interesting for players
Jeff-A: As Jeff-W noted, this defensive refit occurs after the Four Powers War. YIS would be the same as the + refit, when the Kzintis are preparing to fight foriegn enemies, not each other.
Everyone: The ships retain their pre-refit disruptors and drones. They have the same offensive power as unrefitted ships.
The fluff refers to non-escort duties for two reason. First, there is no real reason (like expensive Aegis) they could not be taken from the carrier groups. Second, at the time, refits are not standard. Converting a refitted ship to Aegis might make economic sense, but paying for a + refit on a ship you've already paid to refit isn't very economic, and the Kzintis are fighting for survival.
I a defensive ship being replaced with an Aegis escort, then joining a squadron or fleet for drone defense. At least as an experiment.
The Klingons are deploying B refits, D5s with Drone-A, and fighters. The Kzintis do put ADDs on the CM (Y170), although they don't trade drones for them.
Second last paragraph: "I a defensive..." is meant to read "I can see a defensive..."
Faulty reasoning:
1) refits were to be limited to carrier escorts. (1*ECL plus 1*EFF per CV/CVS, 1*ECL plus 1*EFF per CVL, 1* EFF per CVE, (net totals 9*ECL plus 14*EFF).
2) given that both the Klingons AND Lyrans used drones less than the Kzintis, the Kzintis having drone superiority in combat STRENGTHENS the Kzinti forces rather than weakens it. I.E. the Coalition is required to use phasers for drone defense while the Kzintis can devote all phaser 1 fire (plus disrupters) to killing ships. The proposed refit weakens the Kzinti case by adding a useless weapon system and costing the Kzintis a disproportionate amount of its disrupters and drone rack drone capacity (I.e. adding ADD).
3) you are still getting the time period wrong. The Federation started using drones on MS class ships from the YIS date. They introduced drone on DD class ships in year 155. The Plus refits were introduced (I think) in year 165.
So, your claim that the Federation was not using Drones during the time period (repeating for the nteenth time) Year 164-8 years is totally wrong.
The Feds mostly didn't until fighters started coming out and/or they started adding G-racks to ships.
Too lazy to look up the dates.
Richard, Just as well.
JGA hasn’t got a leg to stand on.
PDU on selected major and minor worlds deployed B-36 bombers at least a decade before the start of the General War. They were in turn, replaced by newer bomber, both dedicated bomber types as well as kit bombers. PDUs were equipped with F-4 fighters as of turn 1 in F&E fall year 168.
Spin this any way that you want, but JGA is simply mistaken.
Plus refits were available in year 165. That means all new construction after that point included the plus refit.