(R2.XX) The Federation recognized the limitations of the division control ship class (DCS). A dreadnought based heavy carrier with four heavy weapons and two special sensors was determined to resolve the limitations with the DCS class


A Dreadnought Heavy Carrier (DVA), a Space Control Ship (SCS), and a damaged Heavy Carrier (CVA) were considered.

The DVA required removal of 2 photon torpedoes tubes or adding a gun house with two special sensors. The Admirals were unwilling to give up the firepower this ship possessed and adding two special sensors in a dorsal gun house was seen as a waste.

The SCS represented the largest fighter compliment without resorting to building gunboats. The Admiral were unwilling to alter the design.

The damaged CVA (Zhukov) was available. Adding special sensor was straight forward by mounting these in a dorsal gun house. This preserved six shuttle bay aft and the ability to operate an E3-s heavy SWAC. Something the DVA did not have and could not operate. The Admiral agreed.

The Zhukov was converted to what amounted to a heavy division control ship. The ship may have been renamed and given a new NCC number. The designation was: CVAS. Fighters: 12 F-14; 6xA20F.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, May 16, 2020 - 11:49 pm: Edit

Joe, shouldn’t the F-14s be F-14D.?

Perhaps even mega fighter?

If I were flying a solo mission against a RTN with unknown number and types of defenses I would want the latest and greatest version of the tomcats.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, May 17, 2020 - 12:16 am: Edit

I forgot the YIS is Y185. At first it will F-14Bs. Once it is RTN hunting it would be F-14C. I do agree with you.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, May 17, 2020 - 02:20 pm: Edit

You prefer "F14 and A20 over "F111 and A10?"

I'd be interested in what the super players think is the better option.

I know there is a limit on F14 deployments (# of squadrons). Anyone want to chime in with if there there are available squadrons?

CVA (1 is still running around ?)
SCS (At least one? George Washington?)
BCV
BCS
DVL (Still alive?)
certain number of PDUs/ Starbases.


Mike (away from my books still)

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, May 17, 2020 - 02:30 pm: Edit

I've already forgotten who graciously shared their excellent YIS tracking spreadsheet.

But the below is what I THINK is the alive F14 toting ships by 185

Star Tiger. Plus Star Lion is still alive to be converted...

Zhukov
Julius Caesar
Napoleon
Washington
Frederick the Great?

Shangri La
Atlantis (1/2 squadron)
Lemuria (1/2 squadron)

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Mike,

Years ago I proposed a heavy strike carrier built on a CVA hull. It carried 12XF-14 Bs or Cs and 6xF-111 on mech links. The proposal has been deleted and I do not know the status.

I am fine adding two special sensors to that ship (heavy strike carrier)

Also years ago I asked players preferred A-20Fs or F-111s. The F-111s were the preferred choice. since then mega packs have been added. S8.0 rules allows a second ship with F-111s with mega packs in addition to the 12 allowed on the first carrier.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 04:27 pm: Edit

6.?.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 04:41 pm: Edit

Yes 6.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, May 20, 2020 - 04:30 pm: Edit

And I can agree with hat IF you get just 6 two space fighters.

BUT< that is not the calculus we have here. We are asking for an assessment of F111+A10 vs F14+A20.

So F111 might be better than A20, but then you have to talk about the difference between F14 vs A10.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, May 20, 2020 - 05:32 pm: Edit

Mike,

What do you think the fighter load should be?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, May 20, 2020 - 07:53 pm: Edit

I had been under the impression that for purposes of this topic the "fighter load" was to be one squadron of 12 "single space" fighters and one squadron of 6 "two-space" fighters. In other words, keeping the other factors constant, which is a more effective force, 6 F111 + 12 A10 (one of which is probably an EW fighter) or 6 A20F + 12 F14 (one of which is probably an EW fighter).

But I disagree with Mike's 4:30 PM post that "So F111 might be better than A20, but then you have to talk about the difference between F14 vs A10." I assume he expressed it this way to compare heavy fighter to heavy fighter, and standard sized fighter to standard sized fighter. But in terms of weaponry and intended role, the A10 corresponds more closely to the A20F and the F111 corresponds more closely to the F14. So I believe it is actually more instructive to compare a squadron of 6 A20Fs to a squadron of 12 A10s, and similarly to compare the F111s to the F14s. Doing that, my opinion is that the F14+A20F combination is the better choice, as discussed below.

A20F versus A10
The critical factor here is speed. A10s are limited to speed 10, or 20 if they are megafighters or have warp boost packs. The A20F is speed 15/30. I regard this as being more important for fighters whose primary weaponry is direct fire, than it is for fighters that are primarily drone platforms, because the DF fighters have to get closer to the enemy to be effective. A drone-armed fighter can target an enemy from much further away, especially after fast drones are introduced. So depending on the tactical situation, an enemy may be able to largely neutralize the A10s simply by maneuvering to keep out of range, even if they are A10Ms. Neutralizing A20Ms in this way is much harder and requires the enemy to expend so much energy for movement that his own firepower is probably sharply reduced.

The A20 squadron also has much better options for its drone loadout. For example, A20s can use multi-warhead drones. Additionally, each A20 has an ADD. That may be less important against Andromedans. But if the squadron is trying to fight past some Klingon ZYC fighters to get into firing position on that Klink C8V, those ADDs and MW drones could be very useful.

I don't say the A20F is superior in every conceivable situation. For example, if the situation is an attack on a Klingon battle station, there's no concern about the main target "moving out of range". An A10 is almost as durable as an A20, and a squadron would have a lot more of them. So it takes more total firepower to knock out the A10s than the A20s. In that specific situation, the A10s may have the over all edge.

But even then... suppose the Klingons send ships/fighters/PFs to intercept the Feds before they reach the battle station at all - an "approach battle" in F&E terms. Then you're back to the maneuvering battle in open space, in which the A-10's slow speed is a distinct handicap. So my opinion is that an A20F squadron is much more useful than an A10 squadron, while recognizing this is somewhat situation-dependent.


Because I am a slow typist and have something else I need to do, I will discuss F111 squadron versus F14 squadron later. But briefly, I also consider an F14 squadron to be superior to an F111 squadron in most circumstances, though I see it as a much closer call than the A10/A20F comparison. And as stated earlier, I believe the latter comparison makes A20F+F14 superior to F111+A10 in most situations.

Just my .02 quatloos worth...

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Wednesday, May 20, 2020 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Thank you Alan. Very concise and helpful.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, May 21, 2020 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Alan, I agree. MY point is that I am not a good enough player to evaluate the difference between F14+A20 vs F111 +A10 in any kind of useful fashion.


But your point about A20 speed is wekk taken.

Does the availability of ONE squadrons worth of Megapacks change your decision? Which squadron gets them first?

I am guessing the A20M and F14D with boost packs is how you'd load them out by preference...

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, May 21, 2020 - 12:20 pm: Edit

By the way, your choice flies DIRECTLY against the one earlier by Joe Carlson.

He wants the F111... With the caveat that much has been added to the game since then.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, May 21, 2020 - 12:42 pm: Edit

Mike I did not say I wanted F-111s. I actually prefer A-10s and F-14Ds. The ship is limited to 12 mega packs. I would have 6 A-10Ms, 5 F-14Ds, and 1 F-14EM. You can fly these fighters in mixed squadrons.

This ship would be part of a carrier battle group. The second carrier I would choose would be a CVH. Sine F-111s are an exception to only 12 mega pack equivalent fighters. The CVH would carry 6 F-111Ms. The CVH doesn't need an escort. It and the escorts for the RTN hunter carrier (2 NACs and 1 DWA) would be the back up ships.

My preferences will not dictate the fighter group. Further G3A will likely influence the fighter group choice. Also there isn't a Fed SC2 carrier with F-111s. These are on NVH, NHV, NDC, CVH, AWP, and DCS class ships and star bases and stellar fortresses.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, May 21, 2020 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Mike,

You're right. If I had a force with a squadron of F-14Ds and a squadron of A-20Fs and could provide megafighter systems for one, but not both, squadrons, I would make the A-20Fs megafighters and use warp boost packs for the F-14Ds.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, May 22, 2020 - 07:52 pm: Edit

1) Joe, I thought that it was 6 SPACES worth of megapacks. So 6 for F111 or 12 for size 1...

2) THIS proposal is for a RTN hunter that is NOT part of a CVBG.

3) Alan, I thought as much. But I readily admit I am not a top tier player... Or even one of average ability.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, May 22, 2020 - 10:51 pm: Edit

Mike,

I am most certainly not a top tier player either. But I have noticed over the years that I play better on floating map than I do on fixed map. The tempo is different and seems to suit me better. When there are "walls in space" I feel "hemmed in" and seem to be more prone to blunders.

So, do I play better on floating map because I like it better? Or do I like it better because I play better? That's something I can't really answer.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, May 23, 2020 - 04:12 pm: Edit

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Saturday, May 23, 2020 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Are there any other comments?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, May 24, 2020 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Yes.

What the CVA version needs is a fast A-10 assault shuttle option, not A-20s. (Huge grin!)

(For those new to the BBS. The policy position from “the Powers that BE” is that a fast A10 variant would make A-20s obsolete. For that reason, a A10F is unlikely to be approved or published.)

Guess I will have a LOT of booth time coming up. I better get some paint color samples over to web mom for her approval. Might as repaint the agonizer booth seeing that I am going to be there anyway.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, May 31, 2020 - 11:03 pm: Edit

Jokes aside, I am not quite done here.

A CVA (Zhukov) refit to get to a Special Heavy Carrier (a SDCS by another name) Super Divisional Control ship variant is ignoring a pretty important issue.

Namely, the CVA/SCVA/SDCS is intended for one on one+ combat with Andromedan RTN defenses. Sure, the rest of the escort group and reinforcements will arrive sooner or later (hopefully sooner) but until that help arrives, the SHCVA will have to fight alone with only its wing of fighting shuttles.

I feel a review of the weapons ON the SHCVA is not only appropriate but necessary.

Up until now, Joe C. Has been laid back on changes to the ship. pretty much limited to adding two special sensors and a discussion of what the composition of the fighter/assault shuttles will be.

I may be alone here (not for the first time!) but a review of the ships weapons should be done with a view to increasing the direct combat ability of the ship with regards to the Andromedans.

For example, the special sensors That were necessary to detect the RTN node might as well just be ignored after closing with the enemy for the first salvo. At that point, any energy allocated to special sensors is just wasted, unless the ship is entirely rearmed with phaser Gatling or phaser 3s. All other weapons “blind” special sensors. If this rearmament Scheme is installed, the SHCVA becomes little more than a base to rearm or repair damaged fighters.

Same with Photons (it is a Federation ship we’re talking about.). Once the initial salvo of overloaded photons are released, the Rearming energy to reload the photons will compete with the energy demands of rearming the A10/A20 fighters photons. Is there a case to be made to increase the AWR capacity on the SHCVA? IMO we should discuss it.

What about drone racks? Traditionally, the Federation arms it’s ships with drone G racks. Given the 1vs1+ nature of the RTN hunting ops, should there be more drone G racks ? Fewer? Should there be some B racks installed? Should One or more Drone G racks be replaced by B drone racks?

One thing I do believe Is, the CVA as configured to fight in the a General War vs Klingons, Romulans and Lyrans May need some modification to fight the Andromedans . Andromedans use power absorbers, not conventional shields. They ARE NOT the SAME.

A single Modified CVA May need more than its wing of F-14Dfighters and A-20F assault shuttles just to survive, let alone win.

And we still haven’t even opened the can of huge purple zebra worms SWACs modifications for dealing directly with the Andromedans!

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Sunday, May 31, 2020 - 11:52 pm: Edit

If The Zhukov was converted to a SCS variant with two special sensors and an XP refit then we have a near equal of Kzinti SSCS or the Gorn SPS.

The XP refit would be a full refit allowed under the rules. The drone racks are converted to GX racks. Under these rules we can add limited Aegis.

I would rename the ship Gustavus Adolphus (Staff [Sword] of the Nobel [Royal] Wolf) and the motto of the ship: hakkaa päälle (cut them down with steel). He was a Swedish Warrior King in the 1600s. He was also called the Lion of the North.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, May 31, 2020 - 11:55 pm: Edit

I have on a number of occasions tried to get XP refits into one thing or another and have always been shot down.

It is not likely that a proposal with an XP refit will fly I think.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, June 01, 2020 - 12:35 am: Edit

Richard,

Thanks. Under stood. I should have been more clear. XP refit is done after the ship is built.