Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through August 23, 2020	25		08/23 02:12pm
	Archive through August 26, 2020	25		08/26 05:06pm

---

Quote:

Why would you ask? ECM drones for a starter. Ability to have scatter packs.

---

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, August 26, 2020 - 04:28 pm: Edit

The addition of drones to a non-drone using ship was generally worth losing one admin shuttle, presuming that the ship has more than one admin shuttle to begin with.

Losing a suicide shuttle that is speed 6 but gaining the ability to launch a drone with 6 damage points and 24 warhead (for 0 power) is not a negative.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, August 26, 2020 - 04:51 pm: Edit

Alan T:

I have not thought out all of the issues.

My thinking, was that the type F drone rack might be treated as a replacement for an admin shuttle.

Admin shuttles could be used as scatter packs. But the drones have to come from reloads or off of existing drone racks.

Basically, my intention was for it to be another “emergency weapon” much like using a probe launcher as a weapon, or a admin shuttle as a scatter pack or a suicide shuttle.

Sorry I was unclear.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, August 26, 2020 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Vandar, if the use of converting an admin shuttle to a type F jump rack is calculated correctly, and any player in a scenario using ship(s) so equipped is balanced in BVPs, where is the harm?

If the two sides have equal BPVs, is it not by definition, equal?

Edited for spelling.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, August 26, 2020 - 05:06 pm: Edit

BPV is a one dimensional measurement of a ship's usefulness in battle.

However, in reality, the value of a ship's usefulness in battle varies wildly according to circumstance.

This also goes for improvements to a ship.

For a Kzinti ship, an F-rack provides little capability that the ship did not already have.

For a Romulan or earlier model Fed ship (no G-rack etc), an F-rack provides extra capability that improves that ship's combat abilities by a larger proportion than that Kzinti ship.

So, no.

Adding a fixed BPV cost for the refit regardless of ship does not come up with a balanced solution.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, August 27, 2020 - 03:42 pm: Edit

Richard, you need to study the Star Fleet Battles rules set.

Non drone using ships have a default value of 3 seeking weapons channels available. (For use with suicide assault shuttles or scatter packs Are available. One example of which would be if a ship has a MRS and its 20 drone space stock pile.)

Adding a drone type F jump rack is at the cost of one admin shuttle... so your “...provides an extra capability that improves that ships combat abilities by a larger proportion than that Kzinti ship” is actually the opposite result of what you state.

You failed to deduct the value of the missing admin shuttle. Note also, per the rules set that you failed to take into account that drone speed upgrade costs for slow (speed 8) drones is +0. Spreed 20 drone upgrade cost is +0.5 per drone.

So swapping an admin shuttle for a type F drone rack with speed 8 drones loses more BPVs than the ship gains with the addition of the type F jump rack.

So, your post is actually in error for those years where slow speed drones are in use.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 27, 2020 - 04:11 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

You do not get to berate another player.

I would note that there is nothing that prevents that type-F rack from being loaded with type-IV drones, and three type-IV drones is a full load for a scatter pack and within the control limits of a ship with otherwise no drones. I would also note that seeing three drone separate from a shuttle would require you to assume that they might be type-IV drones.

I would further note that the use of a scatter pack by a ship not otherwise armed with drones could provide a tactical edge, and that a drone could be launched from the drone rack immediately after one of the drones from the scatter pack was destroyed. Or that with careful timing the scatter pack drones could have ATG and you could launch one from the rack after they gained their own lock ons.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 27, 2020 - 04:11 pm: Edit

Jeff: I think you did not get what I was trying to say at all.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Thursday, August 27, 2020 - 04:53 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

and that a drone could be launched from the drone rack immediately after one of the drones from the scatter pack was destroyed.

---

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 27, 2020 - 05:07 pm: Edit

A scatterpack could launch three drones without ANY having come from the racks. You don't have to completely fill a scatter pack with drones.

The situation is that you have eight spaces of drones, 4 in the rack and 4 in reloads. The rules usually let you put reload drones into the rack before the scenario starts.

So you have options, you could put some or all of the reloads into the scatter pack.

You could spend time before launching the scatter pack to unload some spaces from the rack (on turn one, say) and then next turn load some of those onto the scatter pack. Or you could not do that on turn two.

It's now turn three and you launch the scatter pack.

What's in it, wonders your opponent? It would be good to know in order to better plan his attack, but it's really hard to say at this point.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 27, 2020 - 06:57 pm: Edit

If you had an F-rack (and I am not saying we are adding this back into the game as a general rule, I am citing my own experiences) you can play games with Commander's Option Points. Just like a drone armed ship can. You can purchase extra drones to fill your scatter pack and not tough the reloads.

When you get into a fight, it is good to remember what you are fighting and what your own ship is. Not all scenarios are "cruiser duels," there are frigate and destroyer duels (and between gamers you might ignore some restrictions and fight a duel between dreadnoughts, or even battleships). And not all ships are equal in other respects. Your opponents ability to have "Labs" identify drones may not be as good as he might like (a SparrowHawks and FireHawks only have two labs), so even if both Lab attempts work, they may have to overkill the third drone rather than risk it being a type-IV, and of course the drone from the rack could be a type-IV launched in his face.

And, sometimes (back when the F-rack was more common) you could catch an opponent not thinking about it, and when you launched two drones from your drone rack on the overrun, he emptied his weapons into you (and shooting down the two drones) and then you launched the third (type-IV) drone from the shuttle bay. Or, even better, he knew you had no seeking weapons, and fired his alpha strike on the overrun, and then you launched the drones that "you did not have."