Archive through November 11, 2020
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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R10: ANDROMEDAN PROPOSALS:
New and variant Satellite Ships?:
Archive through November 11, 2020
Module C3A covered a LOT of ground with new Andromedan ideas, but there was (at least) one thing I noticed that wasn't included. When the carrier pods were discussed, no mention was made about what the Andromedans might use as escorts.
To throw an idea out there, and inspired (in part) by the Gun Sled, I imagine an Escort Cobra with three Ph-2 (FH) replacing the TRLs and (initially limited) Aegis fire control installed.
An unrelated idea (but also partially inspired by the way the Chlorophon DDE makes such extensive use of T-bombs) is variants on some satellite ships to increase Andromedan offensive mine use.
We all know an Andromedan can roll T-bombs out a hatch just as easily as anyone else can roll one out a shuttle bay. They can also beam them out into space even more easily than anyone other than the RYN (and maybe Jindarian rock hulled ships).
Aw heck, I can imagine an Andromedan tactic of beaming out a Satellite Ship, have it fly an arc through an area they don't want anyone to go through, and beaming it back aboard without it firing any weapons. This tactic suggests the possibility of the Satellite Ship dropping its couple of T-bombs somewhere in that arc, making it a potential threat to anyone trying to go through it.
It was with that thought in mind that I imagined a ship based on the Python or Reconaissance Cobra, but with their Displacement Devices exchanged with a single mine rack doing that as a dedicated combat harassment minelayer.
There is some precedence with their Monitors (the Immobilator and Concretor), but these could still be pretty controversial... 
Jeff Anderson:
I gave some thought to escorts, but the nature of their operations did not seem to make this viable.
Would a Conquistador operating as a carrier be required to move at the slower off-RTN speed so that its escort could stay with it, or require the escort to have an Displace Device? And displacement devices while found on reconnaissance cobras so distract from the fire power of such a hull that it does not seem worth while as an escort. So you would use a Python? And what is the point of a mothership with just one escort since you cannot normally have two displacement device equipped ships moving strategically? So you either have to dedicate a ship with a displacement device as a escort, or on larger (say Intruder) carry the Escorts inside, which given Andromedan operations does not work too well.
Reasonable arguments as always, SPP.
Would you believe that I never pictured a Conquistador operating a carrier pod? I figured that, with the exception of the medium bomber pod, because they all carried twenty four spaces of fighters, the people programming the simulators would exclusively use them in Dominator or Infestor hulls; they'd mimic the CVAs, CVDs, and ACSes of the Galactic Powers.
Jeff Anderston:
Well, suffice to say I considered it, and felt more of a need to maintain the flavor or Andromedan operations that to clutter them with escorts and curtail their operations if they wanted to use fighters, heavy fighters, or bombers.
By the way, I "gave some thought" when the I was manufacturing the Carrier pods, so this is not a "new" discussion for me. I had a long discussion indeed with the voices in my head on this particular subject at the time.
You might also want to consider that a Mothership operating as a carrier is a temporary thing. It is under no obligation to continue doing so if there are no fighters/bomber to restock the pod, and can simply take on a new pod (such as a plasma pod) or an appropriately sized (Medium) satellite ship at the next base and continue merely on its way creating havoc. Satellite ships converted to carrier escorts would wind up waiting around for the pods to be reused, or not operating as satellite ships.
Given these factors, which do not affect Galactic Carriers, well it just did not seem to make sense to have dedicated Andromedan carrier escorts.
Were we sitting around with some Cold Ones passing back and forth, SPP, I'd probably toss out a casual comment about how the Galactic Powers didn't fully understand how the Andromedans operated, so they MIGHT program their simulators to transpose their own operational patterns on to the invaders, but that's just me being a jerk sometimes.
The matter was considered and your reasoning for not having it is satisfactory, so I'm content
I could see it on that basis, but it's up to Petrick. Star Fleet Intelligence would have to be run by morons to think that would happen, but then....
I just cannot see it (sorry).
If you decide to have a carrier, you fit the available mothership, whether a Conquistador, an Intruder, an Infestor, a Dominator, heck, even a Caravel or a Devastator with a Carrier Pod. No fuss, no muss.
Now the escort.
Okay, we are going to be fighting a drone armed opponent, so we need lots of T-bombs, and pull those TR beams out so we can install extra transporters to lay the T-bombs.
Okay, we are gong to be fighting a plasma armed opponent, so replace those those TR Beams with Phasers.
What do you mean you already replaced them with Transporters?
In any case, rip out some more systems to create a "hangar bay" so rearm and repair the fighters/bombers of the carrier
Okay Jeff Anderson, you design an escort that will escort the Andreomedans.
Remember, it has to escort Andromedana against plasmas, and against drones. Because the universe is liked, you also need to worry about the Omega Octant empires (even if the Intel guys in our octant are not aware of them. the Intel guns in the Omega octant wold be making the same assumptions.
You need to define the escort groups for all possible carriers from the Conquistador to the Devastator and how many escorts they will havel
Remember that because the Andromedans cannot have more than two displacement device ships arrive in an area.
Consider the Federation who is between the plasma and the drone empires and so has two different concepts for the escort. The normal escort is set up to find off drones (type-G drones racks an not as many phaser-Gs) while the Romulan Border escorts have some type-G drone racks, but lots more phaser-Gs. So you can see the Andromedans, if they went this way, having a lot mover variety in their designs.
But remember, you are dealing with TRHs, TRLs, Phaser-2s, and T-bombs. You do not get to go hog wild and say the Andromedans borrowed technology from their enemies for their escorts.
Remember that the Andromedans are limited to TWO (2) displacement device ships that are active in a battle for planning the escort groups.
Do not forget the carrier support materials and capabilities of the escorts in your designs.
NOTE: I am not kidding.
"Better to have proposed and been rejected than to have not proposed at all."
Besides, the forums are meant to discuss ideas, aren't they?
There is the other idea; the minelayer ships. While it is true my first thoughts with them was from the angle of them serving as carrier escorts, my (alleged?) mind turned to thoughts of them serving as standard Satellite Ships.
In short, how different would a fight be against a Dominator with the following Satellite Ship compliments.
One: Three standard Mambas and one Anaconda.
Two: Three Pythons with their Displacement Devices removed and replaced with mine racks and one Anaconda with the same rebuild.
Group One has nine TRL and five Displacement Devices.
Group Two has six TRL, four Displacement Devices, and up to sixteen NSM OR up to thirty two additional T-bombs.
The threat of all those mines and T-bombs can paralyze a GP fleet, and the same paralyzation can more effectively keep them from reassembling their fleet lines after displacement.
I've been mulling the idea for a while now, and the biggest problem I've been seeing with it is that it feels like too much of a reminder of the problem with Commander's Edition T-bomb rules (the ones that, three decades ago, you said too often turned the game from one of maneuver into a board version of "Star Castles").
Essentially idea was proposed a long time ago by ... darn I wish I remember his name but my memory is not as good as it used to be. It might have been James A. Beggs, but I am not sure. I think Carl-Magnus Carlson proposed a sort of "Mine Sled" for the Andromedans that left a mine whenever it was displaced or transported. Both were rejected for pretty much the same reasons that mines were restricted from "All Use" to pretty much "Minesweeper/Minelayers and a special cutout for Romulans" and T-bombs were restricted to far less than 12 per ship, and dummy T-bombs were restricted from "unlimited" to "no more than the ship has real mines." Some players (I am guilty) had a bad habit of restricting movement by scattering mines hither and yon all over the map.
Wait!.!
Andromedans can operate BOMBERS!?!
(See SPP post at 11:35 AM. Last sentence.)
JSW, they can IN SIMULATORS ONLY.
Module C3A: Andromedan Threat File.
Includes fighters, bombers, PFs and a whole lotta other stuff.
A couple of the things are modified cargo pods that allow them to operate bombers from motherships (RC10.50C and RC10.50D).
Jeff Wile:
Jeff Anderson is quite correct. The Andromedans operated the AB-1, AB-2, AB-3 medium bombers and the AB-H heavy bomber. At least they did in the fevered imaginations of naval intelligence. The Whole sordid tale is covered in Module C3A: Andromedan Threat File, along with the pods (PV, P-HV, P-VM, and P-VH) they used to carrying them in place of satellite ships in their internal hangar bays. They could launch them with a single transport operations (picture a flight of six heavy bombers appearing as if a Satellite ships), but sadly could only recover them one at a time (imagine what a mess that was when you had previously launched 24 fighters in a single transporter operation and now need to individually recover them and they cannot "land aboard" under their own power.
But, yes, in "the simulators" the Andromedans did indeed operate fighters and bombers. And PFs!
Ah.
It’s hard enough to remember “real history” stuff in Star Fleet Battles.
Add my name to the growing list of players not thrilled by imaginary changes “the simulators” make possible.
Jeff Wile:
Different players, different personalities.
Again the note that to me it is interesting to "feel out" an unknown empire. To me, the Module C4 empires were a cornucopia of new experiences. To the extent that I have them all assigned as substitutes for Empires on the Federation & Empire map.
By size, with the Viper, Andros almost always had PFs....
Viper is the Corvette/Light Frigate, Cobra is the Heavy Frigate/ Light Destroyer, and the Python/Mamba is the heavy Destroyer ... so the Viper could be considered the heavy PF equivalent instead of a corvette ... (:D)
Don't forget about replacing T-bombs with power absorber mines when facing plasma empires.
Nick Blank:
The basic trouble with Power Absorber mines is they work really well when dealing with one Ginormous plasma. They are not really effective versus a lot of little plasmas. Individually, the plasma-D torpedo does not seem like much, but when a squadron launches 11 of them (assuming an EW fighter) you tend to sit up and take notice (we are assuming from an effective range, of course).
I know 11 drones seems a lot scarier on its face, but you can use tractors and T-bombs will kill more than one.
So while those 11 drones have the potential to inflict 131 damage points and the plasmas (assuming they will hit between 6 and 10 hexes) only do 88 the plasmas are a LOT harder to stop.
Note that at 10 hexes range both the drones and the plasma torpedoes will take the SAME amount of phaser fire to stop, but note that you cannot stop plasma with (counter) drones, Anti-Drones, tractors, or non-phaser weapons. And, again, one T-bomb might stop a lot of drones, but one power absorber mine will only stop one (1) plasma torpedo.
That is true.
Darn, I am getting old. My mind is slipping.
Sigh.
The drones will take four (4) points each of phaser fire to stop.
The plasmas will take 16 points of phaser fire to stop at that range. It is two points to one one point of warhead reduction, not two points of warhead reduction to each point of damage. My apologies.
Another point is drone control versus plasma torpedoes.
A drone player usually has plenty of control channels, but he DOES have to pay attention to them. Knock out the fighter guiding the drones and, well the EW fighter can pick up control. But if there is no EW fighter, well the Multi-role can take up control. If there is no multi role, your ship can pick up control. If there is no ship? Well, hopefully one of the fighters has a drone control pod. But what if you did not have a drone control pod, or the fighter was destroyed? Well, hopefully you outfitted your drones with their own homing system. But what if the fighter was destroyed when the drone was more than eight hexes from the target? Uhm ...
With plasma torpedoes it is fire and forget. Sure, you might want to keep control so that the plasma can benefit from your ECCM, but even a lowly plasma-D has three points of built in ECCM.
To be fair, remember that it IS A LOT HARDER to get close enough to launch the plasma-Ds, but if you do, they keep going at Speed 32 (or faster if they have the sabot refit) and the only thing that will stop them is being shot to pieces by phasers or a wild weasel (or a wild Scout PF or a Wild SWAC). There are not many options to keep a plasma from hitting its target.
Drones? By comparison they are so easy to stop. Why, even scouts can reach out and turn them off.
SPP, a question...
A plasma torpedo on self-tracking is targeted on an Andromedan. The Andromedan displaces out of the plasma torpedo FA track. What happens next?
If my understanding is correct (please feel free to laugh*), the torpedo loses tracking and will just fly on ballistically until it runs out of range.
(* ... And laugh and laugh and... )
Uh, no.
"(G18.64) SEEKING WEAPONS, PPDs: All seeking weapons targeted on the displaced unit continue to follow their target, assuming the conditions in (F3.31) are still met. (The effects of the shift allow seeking warheads to rapidly re-establish the identity of their designated target.)"
See also: "(F2.22) TRACKING ARC: Having satisfied the above conditions, the seeking weapon must move in such a way to place or keep the target in the weapon’s FA firing arc. If this is not possible, the seeking weapon must move in such a way as to place or keep the target in the weapon’s FX firing arc. If this is not possible, this condition is ignored. Note that ship-guided weapons are unaffected by an out-of-arc target, while certain self-guided weapons must have the target in their FA arc or they become inert (FD1.7) and cease to function."
Basically if it has to the plasma torpedo will "look over its shoulder" announce (to no one in particular) "there you are" and will turn as its movement allows (including burning its high energy turn at the option of the controlling player) to pursue the target.
And, no, I am not laughing. It is a reasonable question when you have not played against, or as, an Andromedan and are confronted with the situation.