This is a suggestion for a ship class that might help bring new folks into the game we love. They're small, simple ships that are lightly armed and modestly shielded; small, with easily handled EA forms that are meant to be forgiving of mistakes.

They're small, Size Class 4 vessels that, in some respects, resemble stripped down frigates. Most will be devoid of heavy weapons (relying on phasers more than anything else).

Historically, I originally saw them as vessels that might have been patrolling near the Neutral Zones during the Four Powers War time frame. Basically, they were meant to do was check out whatever might trip the long range sensors on a base, but which would likely be too much of a nothing to warrant sending in a cruiser or destroyer.

During the GW era, such missions would most likely be accomplished by fighters (or gunboats), but would (of necessity) be accomplished by ships of some sort before attrition units started seeing widespread service.

Their biggest virtue is that, being small and inexpensive, there could be possibly as many as four of them built for the same cost as a cruiser, thus letting The Authorities investigate many more of these "Anomalous Sensor Readings" without running the crews (and engines) ragged on cruisers.

When they ran into real problems (which would be more often than not?), they would call in the Big Guns, but they would be expected to handle small stuff on their own.

Of course, their captains, hoping to make a name for themselves (and be moved up to more prestigeous ships) might try to take on more than these little ships can handle...

As an example of the type, I imagine a Federation vessel resembling a Flower class corvette that's had its Photon Torpedo replaced with a FH Phaser-1.

Smaller (movement cost 1/4), more lightly armed than any fleet ship, and with very modest combat abilities, it's the sort of ship that ought to prove easier to teach basic rules to new players, but might also make for an interesting ship for with experienced players might enjoy overcoming challenges.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, November 18, 2020 - 09:55 pm: Edit

So, for the Klingons an E3 or E2?

I think the vanilla POL for most races ARE what you describe.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 02:17 am: Edit

Yes, this is called a police cutter.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 06:24 am: Edit

I think JGA is suggesting a smaller variant using the recently proposed flower class corvette as the base design.

Specifically, expanding the VT type to those empires that do not already have a comparable ship in service.

But that is just a guess.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 07:10 am: Edit

I think everybody has one of those. Klingon E3, Romulan Snipe, Kzinti FF, Gorn DD, Tholian PC, Hydran Hunter, Lyran FF, ISC FF.

By Nick Blank (Nickgb) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 08:03 am: Edit

I think what you are looking for are the mini cadet cruisers for training new players. The cadet training product is also a free download.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 09:56 am: Edit

JGA did specify that these “things” were to be used during the four powers war (year 160?) , armed only with phasers and have a movement cost of 1/4=0.25.

I am not arguing for or against... just trying to evaluate the idea.

He did include a mission/role for the design. I.E. border patrol boat during peace time.

The closest analogy I can think of, is sending out a “point man” ahead of a squad of infantry. Might save the squad from ambush or a mine field.

Hard on the soldier assigned to point. Not every one has the skills to survive.

If the old light cruiser U.S.S. Macedonia had a small ship on point, it might have survived. The ship on point likely wouldn’t.

All of that said, we have been down this particular road before. The smallest practical ship (other than the Romulan snipe or the Klingon E3 or the Federation Flower VT) has always been the APT. It’s BPV is what? 75 BPVs?

While there might be some tactical value to JGAs idea, the history has been that small ships are still expensive in BPVs, and just are not cost effective in combat.

Look at the estimate JGA offered, (“about 1/4 of the cost of a Cruiser...”). That works out to about 25 BPV up to 31 depending on what cruiser you use (NCL or a vanilla CA.)

He has just described a late General War PF, and he wants it to have a YIS of year 160.

Is a year 160 gun boat design possible without using a skiff or. PF?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 11:30 am: Edit

Just take a Free Trader, or an Armed Priority Transport, or a Small Armed Freighter.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 12:03 pm: Edit

The real idea was a simple phaser boat as a means of introducing new players easily to the rules. The mission and time period were meant as fig leaf covers.

Cadet ships, while VERY nice, are (in my opinion) a little too different from standard ships.

Prime Traders, small auxiliary cruisers, and phaser armed freighters can fill the bill as well, but (and again, this is my opinion) have a certain lack of "Cool Factor" that also might bring in new players.

At any rate, it was really just an idea.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 01:58 pm: Edit

Anything that makes the game accessible (I mean encourages) new players to purchase and play is good.

Hard to argue against that goal.

Now SPP’s point about FT, APT or small armed freighters, is practical, but does not address JGA’s stated goal to make the game more attractive to new prospective customers.

Now, all of that said, I do have a problem with where this is going.

Would it be good for the game to introduce yet another attrition unit? The F&E impact might not be measurable, a small phaser boat with less COMPOT than a PF (and a possible Econ cost of less than 1?) offers little to F&E .

In FC or SFB’s this is a tiny ship that would be easier to kill than a frigate.

The only positive, is if such a ship is fun to play.

And until I get a chance to push some card board across a map, it’s doubtful that I can find out.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 02:29 pm: Edit

I think the cadet ships, and the cadet module itself, are perfect for the stated goal of introducing new players to the game. In fact, the cadet game is a fun, albeit simplified, version of the big game. No need to clutter the system with yet another ship class.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 03:29 pm: Edit

I don't think dueling phaser boats is a good way to introduce new players to the game. You have to give them a taste of the technological diversity of the game up front or they won't come back.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 04:51 pm: Edit

Several Empires have phaser-armed PFs in lieu of other weapons. Just drop the warp packs and you are done.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 06:16 pm: Edit

Let's be fair here. When I played a lot (every weekend when I was not in the field, or when my opponents were in garrison rather than in the field) I often fought squadron battles with just police ships or frigates. But I have also done full fleet battles with a dreadnought as the centerpiece, and come to that, have even fought one on one duels with dreadnoughts (probably would have done one on one with battleships if they had been printed back then).

Yes, they were good times and we had some real laughs. Rolling dice for legendary officers, crew quality. Blundering into each other in the middle of an Ion Storm because we decided to roll for terrain AFTER we set up the battle. Good times and good memories.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 08:20 pm: Edit

To be honest, I think a lot of us got into the game because it was fun. When I was in college, we had a war games club that was mostly ROTC, and a few walk-in players ... when we weren’t playing modern warfare miniatures it was SFBs.

Wonderful battles won and lost.

Yes, those were great days.

By Jack Bohn (Jackbohn) on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 12:26 pm: Edit

To make a scenario, what is this ship going to meet?

Another Border Patrol for a duel? Possibly, but one would hope not too often.

Drone Bombardment? It seems simple math; five weapons, five drones per turn. (And tractor one, but that's a temporary solution.) A target practice game until the DB gets angry enough to come in and chase you off?

Monster? Most monsters are not detectable at a distance, that's why they are encountered instead of avoided. Perhaps another ship firing on it, with or without a distress call is detected. If the monster is "dialed in" to be a beatable challenge, it had to be picking on something even smaller.

Shuttles? What trouble are they causing? Joyriding? Jousting! You against two ph-3 platforms and having to disable but not destroy. Advance the scenario with a gang of shuttles that either run, watch, or join the attack.

Skiffs, freighters, Free Traders, APTs, involved in... something that our captain's people skills did not dissuade them and we have to rely on hot phasers? Play balance might come to disabling boxes on one side or the other.

Distressed ships in an asteroid field? What would make it require decisions and score points rather than practicing the rules on how to? Similarly for a minefield; one abandoned by the other side in establishing the Neutral Zone, or from a vanished one-hex empire, hopefully not from the urban legend that there is a pirate hideout in the neighborhood.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Dang, I forgot skiffs they arrived long after I no longer had a group). But, yes, Skiffs are the thing along with the PF phaser boats, and you can use Interceptors. Along with the Armed Priority transport and the armed variant of the Armed priority transport, and small armed freighters, and Free Traders, there are more than enough small ships run a battle or two with them to let people see what is what. There just is no call for a new smaller ship for all Empires.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 05:57 pm: Edit

Not a new ship type, what about a all phaser variant of “skiffs, interceptors, PF phaser boat, armed priority transport or armed variant APT, small freighter, or free traders”?

To my ear, this sounds like a captains log article observing that any or all of the things SPP listed could have been (or were...) used to supplement the normal standing patrols of FF, DD, CL or CA class ships.

That way no new ship design is needed, but at home campaigns have a host of new ships for encounters.