Archive through January 17, 2021
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
New Ships:
R00: PROPOSALS FOR NEW CLASSES:
Survey PF Tenders:
Archive through January 17, 2021
This is a concept which I had considered in the past for individual hull types, but was something which I felt worth addressing in broader terms. Of course, whether or not anyone would agree with me is another story...
The idea here is fairly simple in theory, but perhaps more challenging in terns of execution: at some point, one or more of the empires of the Alpha Octant (or the Omega Octant, once more is known as to what kind of survey ships are in use over there), having taken the step from survey cruiser to light carrier, might eventually consider going yet further, in deploying a survey fast patrol ship tender.
The reasoning would be twofold. In wartime, such a ship would have a stronger attrition unit complement than a light carrier, which (among other things) might make the ship more effective at hunting Andromedan Rapid Transit Network nodes. In peacetime, the "combat flotilla" could be swapped out for a "survey flotilla" of cargo, survey, and other suitable PF variants, so as to provide a greater degree of flexibility on that front.
By way of comparison, the Federation GVX NCC-1783 USS Field Marshal Colin Powell in Module X1R is known for its complement of F-111s, which help make it perhaps the most effective RTN-hunter in Federation space. Yet it is also noted that in peacetime, those F-111s are liable to be swapped out for heavy transport shuttles, so as to support the ship's ability to conduct survey missions. (That said, the Powell had its F-111s on hand during the Space Manta encounter detailed in Captain's Log #40).
Of course, how such a conversion might pan out would vary from empire to empire. In the case of the Romulans, perhaps a new set of SparrowHawk-type modules, sitting somewhere between the C- and E-modules (say, with two of the four Repair boxes on each E-module swapped out for lab boxes) might be sufficient; there are suitable Centurion and StarHawk variants to enable a peacetime "survey flotilla" to be constituted. For others, such as the "lost empire" Carnivons in Module C6, a would-be "SRP" might also require a phaser and disruptor cannon upgrade to the SR hull, if the goal is to use said variant in an anti-RTN role.
And for the Feds over in the "dark future" timeline, one could perhaps offer a "GPX" variant of the GVX itself, with the F-111s swapped out for a flotilla of Thunderbolt PFs, at some point after the alternate timeline Feds started fielding gunboats.
In short, would an "SRP" class be worth considering as an historical mission variant at some point - and, if so, are there any empire-specific quirks or issues which might make some such hulls more or less viable than others?
The Lyrans are easy, since their SR is also a tug, they just add a PF pallet - instant survey tender.
F&E = 3-8TPS/1-4P [4EW] - Might drop to (4EW:2AF)(3EW:3AF)?
That would certainly be a useful configuration in peacetime, if one were to assign a suitable "survey flotilla". However, in the anti-RTN role, I wonder if it might be an option to consider a new single-weight pallet type; one which borrowed from both the battle and PF tender types in order to support this mission.
For example, an "RTN-hunter pallet" would not need the battle pallet's flag bridge, as RTN hunters typically operate alone when searching for an Andromedan RTN node. If one made use of the mech-links on the SR itself, there wouldn't need to be quite as many mech-links added by the pallet either. If that meant cutting back on the number of repair boxes also, well and good.
So, perhaps if one started with the battle pallet, replaced the eight APRs with 4 mech-links and 4 Repair boxes, and swapped out the Flag bridge and ESG boxes for a row of APRs? Sure, losing the added ESGs would be a shame, but one would still see a notable firepower increase over the baseline SR. And the sensors on the SR itself should, more or less, be enough to carry out the search for each new RTN node.
I wonder. Can a Lyran SR, with a PF pallet, ALSO carry a couple casual PFs?
Tugs with a PF pallet (or PF pods) cannot carry 'extra'/casual PFs … (524.221) …
IIRC in SFB, PF tugs can't start a battle with extras but could pick them up in the aftermath but can't think of where that rule is …
524.221 is a F&E rule number. Is there a SFB rule number equivalent?
The rule is (K2.13); the limit is six PF except for a few exceptions.
The exceptions are the Kzinti SSCS, Romulan Redhawk (a Deamonhawk with both Sparrowhawk and Skyhawk PFT modules), Gorn SPS, and Lyran SPS. Starbases and Stellar Fortresses are also exceptions. The Klingon B10S and Kzinti SCS are partial exceptions.
thanks. I am STILL away from my books/ games. BUT, it looks like I finally will be getting a job where I can actually dig them out of the storage unit and use them.
By the way, when is the next Captains Log?
No pressure, just wanting to make sure I buy it!
Something I hadn't thought of before: where do the crews of casual PFs come from? For a couple, it's not too troubling, 30 to 60 crosstrained members of the complement, or, if they are "bought" along with the PF, extra living space and water- air- and food-processing capabilities are within the design limit of the ship. The PFT pallet I would guess has the 180 as part of its crew.
This raises a problem with a RTN Hunter pallet being half Battle Pallet half PFT Pallet. Shedding weapons will shed how much of the crew needed for them, and will free enough room cor your PF crews?
EXCELLENT question, Jack! As a second rate (no, make that third rate at best) amateur fiction writer, it's something I've thought about quite a bit. Having casual gunboats attached to a ship puts quite a strain on it. First, there's the fuel that the gunboats need. There's also the regular, day-to-day maintainance they need as well (and, given how sensitive those unstable engines are, it probably is more maintainance intensive than the standard ship engines are). On top of that, there's also the crew for it who undoubtedy are crew aboard IN ADDITION to the standard crew. Yes, I agree that it's within the design limit for a ship, but it's still a strain on the resources (which is something that I think is outside of current SFB rules).
As for a purpose built RTN Hunter pallet, I can only guess. Is this a modified Battle Pallet or is it something designed from the keel up to serve its purpose? The answer to that question can go a LONG way in determining what sort of habitability it might have.
Fiction... thinking of the crew as people makes the gunboat less of a fun goat and more "death" wrote. I guess the patrollers are additional crew, although I hope not separate, with the "regulars" saying to each other, "Don't give them names." Thinking of the crew in groups of ten, there are no rules about marking off crew units for a PF launch, or checking for being undermanned, or such, so I guess they are additional, with at most a round-downable 4 crossing over.
Thinking of the crew of a gunboat as people does give me a screwball idea...
Imagine a situation where a Casual Gunboat is attached to a ship. The more veteran crewmembers know that the service career aboard gunboats can be tragically short, so a particular protagonist assigned to the gunboat, perhaps a senior NCO, is finding the assignment rough; due to regulations, he can't "Fraternize" with the Junior EM so much, and his fellow NCOs aboard ship are refusing to do so because they don't WANT to get to know him, expecting him to be lost on a mission.
Things twist when the Gunboat NCO gets very ill, perhaps due to some dosequisvirus, and is in quarantine aboard ship when the gunboat goes on its mission (and, as you might expect, is lost).
The convalescing NCO then has to deal with the loss of the closest things he's been allowed to have as friends aboard ship while at the same time the shipboard NCOs may start to open up to allowing him being a part of THEIR shipboard family.
(I think such a story would be too "Emo" for hard core wargamers, so I won't take it any further. 
)
IIRC a flotilla needs 19 crew (including 7 BP) and each casual PF needs 3 crew (including one BP)…
Just to “pick a nit” a little bit... (grin), interesting proposal for a new mission or role for existing PF tenders.
Just want to point out that by the time of the Andromedan invasion, (the time period the U.S.S. Field Marshal Colin Powell served) the Klingons were long time users of PF’s, not just on bases and PFTs, but across the empire.
Just pointing out that it is unlikely that you will see a Klingon version of a GVX operating heavy fighters.
There is an empire that continued to use fighters and heavy fighters after the time point where PFs get deployed.
Is there a Kzinti type GVX? I realize that the Kzintis never deployed a F-111 variant, but they did use two space fighters.
If you are going to pursue a fed GVX survey tender, the logical empire to field a similar design is the Hegemony, not the Klingons.
Curious.
Speaking Jeff to Jeff (), my first thoughts on your post speak again to casual gunboats. Sure, the GVX has a full squadron of F-111s, but even though the F-111 is one heckuva fighter, it's outmatched by Gunboats when on a one-on-one basis.
I'd need to take a look at my copy of X1R for whether the Kzinti have an X-ship survey cruiser, but assuming they have one AND assuming it has the same shuttle capacity of their non-X survey ship, then it can (theoretically) be operated as a SVX with four TADSCM (assuming megafighters? ).
IF this ship had a pair of Needles attached as "Casual Gunboats," then its wing of attrition units could be regarded as (at least) close to that of the Federation GVX.
Could a Klingon DEX (?) operate with, say, three Casual Gunboats? Given that the D7E doesn't have a SRV "Mode," I don't see her having a SVX option. However, the G-1 is a superior gunboat for multiple missions, so perhaps the three G-1s might be regarded as a close match for the contingent of F-111s aboard the Federation GVX.
(Just a couple screwball thoughts... )
Hmmm, think most SRs would be restricted to 2 casual PFs under F&E rules (524.212) though IIRC the Klingon SR do have three tractors (though only two may be in position to support the PFs) …
One issue not discussed, is that the requirements for the survey mission are pretty strict. Iirc Petrick listed them fairly recently, its in the archives.
In short, the Federation requires 8 admin shuttles, I forget if it’s 8 cargo boxes or 10,( not looking at the GSC SSD.) needs a second probe launcher, and the specialists to conduct a planetary survey.special sensors. Labs. 8? Again, not looking at a GSC SSD.
If you do task a PFT for the mission, the contents of the cargo boxes are not the same for both missions. A PFT in combat needs drones. A GSC, not so much.
Not all PFTs will be able to complete a survey mission without some changes.
Survey ships do have a number of recognitional features; the additional labs, larger payload of probes (usually ten instead of five), cargo boxes, special sensors, and (frequently) additional shuttles.
However, not all survey ships have all of these features.
Case in point? The Romulan Pioneer Eagle is just a Scout Eagle that can haul a cargo pallet.
Also, because of replacing the six of theirs with fighters, the Federation GSC(CVL) has only two ADMIN shuttles.
As far as a PFT doing Survey missions, I can imagine a PFT with a half dozen PFQ operating from it (okay, maybe four PFQ and two PFC ), but to be honest, I suspect that the PFTs themselves might not have the "Spacekeeping" characteristics necessary for a long-term survey mission, and their combat capabilities are such that High Command would likely consider using them in that role to be a poor use of resources.
I suppose a case could be made for post General War use of a PFT assigned to survey missions.
Many nations see peace time as an opportunity to demobilize most of their fleet, stand down Army (Read as planetary defense battalions) and air force(read as fighter or bomber squadrons) as a cost saving measure.
Post GW years, a PFT (and its flotilla of PFs) in ***theory*** could be used instead of building a purpose built GSC or other empires survey ships. Now, I admit that a PFT and a full tricked out PFT and flotilla (and plus 20% of commanders options) will out point A DN or some empires CVA... but a vanilla PFT on a war cruiser hull with 2 combat PFs and 4 workboat PF variants might cost out to 120 -175 BPVs. (Not much more than a CA or CC.)
With 2 combat PFs and 4 workboats, the flight group might be able to replace the 8 admin shuttles Than a GSC has for the mission.
Still short cargo and a second probe launcher.
If a PF using empire assigned its PFTs to survey duty, it means they have a huge combat force available at short notice. Far more than what a similar force of Survey cruiser represent.
Heck, might even be better at Survey work than the original Survey Cruisers were.
PFTs are not suited for survey missions, generally, lacking copious lab systems, cargo space or a large shuttle bay, all things that seem to be very helpful for survey missions.
PFTs based on war cruisers probably lack the long term endurance for missions far away from bases that survey ships probably perform.
So probably no to purpose built PFTs doing survey missions.
Don't forget the PFQ survey PF.
Richard,
You are only pointing out issues that I already mentioned.
ADM: exactly.
To use a PFT for survey duty, will require a refit. Most empires that use PFs that are armed with drones have a drone stockpile or cargo boxes to hold drones. For survey duty, the cargo boxes can be repurposed to hold supplies needed for planetary surveys.
The need for a second probe launcher can be partially off set by the use of probe drones.
If a PFT is to be used for planetary surveys, it will need bigger/better/more labs. Almost certainly handled on a case by case basis per SSD.
It is an open question if all planetary surveys must be handled by shuttles. The existence of the PFQ survey PF implies that Richard Is wrong.
Another issue is mission endurance, as Richard pointed out.
As there are survey ships in existence that are based on war cruiser hulls, it would appear that endurance on War Cruiser hulls is not relevant for the planetary survey mission.
Trying to fit a survey ship into a size class 4 hull is hard, we discovered that back in the Kzinti and Federation topics for Galactic Survey Destroyers. So any PFT assigned to survey duty will need to be a size class 3 cruiser variant.
A thought on the use of CW based survey units.
It's been mentioned that there are many worlds in each hex that may be of minor interest. Instead of using war designs in unexplored territory, perhaps these units would work in interior areas, looking for the new resources needed for X-tech. I suspect preliminary surveys would show systems that would be worth a second look, now that they need the X-tech resources, and the risk of tripping over anything from an Orion Pirate or Andromedan hidden base to a monster den, may make a unit like this worth considering.
Most SRs are CA or NCA based with three exceptions (IIRC, Hyd SR, Kzn SR and Fed CLS), none of which are in production (though I think the Kzinti SR [SRI?] could be still be used).
I think internal areas of empires use freighter based survey rather than war cruiser type naval hulls.