IIRC, the Feds also have a "National Guard type" survey ship

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 18, 2021 - 03:07 pm: Edit

The Kzinti SR was a heavy cruiser.

The Kzintis SRI was a heavy cruiser.

The Kzinti NSR was a heavy cruiser

The Kzinti SRL was a Light Cuiser.

The Hydran Picket Survey Cruiser was a full cruiser.

The Hydran Mohican MSR is a New Heavy Cruiser.

The Hydran Pegasus is a cruiser, and I am pretty sure not a "light" cruiser.

The Hydran SR Outrider is a destroyer.

The Federation GSC is a full cruiser.

The Federation NSR is a new heavy Cruiser

The Federation GSR is a heavy (although obsolete) cruiser.

The Federation CLS was an Old Light Cruiser.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 18, 2021 - 06:01 pm: Edit

I THINK this was discussed before, and a Survey ship might have the Mech Link refit and haul two PFs around, but usually only one (1) would be a combat variant. it was one of the reasons PFQs were invented.

You are not going to have a PF Tender Survey Ship. Simply because while a lot of PFs can go to different locations, PFs cannot really do the kind of in depth survey ship can do.

Also, you do realize that on a PF tender you are trading facilities to study what you came to study for facilities to service and maintain and arm PFs? Like replacing warp packs (even if they are not burned you have to flush them). Not to mention providing bunks for the PF crews who are going to need a lot of rest after the cramped quarters of a PF.

Really, a survey PF is not a viable ship for the survey mission.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, January 19, 2021 - 08:18 pm: Edit

I was thinking that a "built to peacetime standards" new build based on a HDW would be a decent start. So 2 PF. and appropriate option (etc) mounts. Maybe not in the FAR FAR boonies, but in the sorta close by boonies...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, January 19, 2021 - 11:29 pm: Edit

Interesting...

SPP said “...you are not going to have PF tender Survey ship.”

Yet, the Federation has a heavy fighter tender based on the GSC. Granted heavy fighters are not PF’s, but the Federation does not have (and apparently never gets) PF’s per published SFB history.

It has been said that the closest the Federation gets to having a PF is the F-111.

So it would seem that any GSC hull equipped to operate F-111 CAN conduct a planetary survey. (Perhaps 1-2 heavy fighters with the rest admin shuttles)

If the Kzinti Hegemony used its own heavy fighter tender based on the BC hull survey cruiser, could it also conduct planetary surveys using a heavy survey ship (assuming it is able to support heavy fighters?)

I wonder how many other empires could have heavy fighter tender style survey ships?

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Wednesday, January 20, 2021 - 12:09 am: Edit

Jeff, I think you are confusing a scout carrier for a survey ship. They are different animals.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, January 20, 2021 - 11:27 am: Edit

GSC, Galactic Survey Cruiser.

What part of that makes you think it is as scout ship?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, January 20, 2021 - 01:07 pm: Edit

In the case of the GVX Powell, it's noted that when the ship was first assigned to the Second Fleet at the end of the General War, its F-111s were swapped out for heavy transport shuttles. The F-111s were swapped back in when the ship was recalled from survey duty to fight the Andromedans.

However, even once the Andromedan War wound down in the Alpha Octant and the ship was once again assigned to the survey mission, there was at least one instance in which it retained its F-111s rather than have the HTSs re-equipped - namely, during the Space Manta encounter of Y206, as portrayed by the cover story and accompanying SFB scenario in Captain's Log #40.

Fortunately, even in the absence of the HTSs, the GVX itself retains the full range of survey capacities that its half-siblings, the GSXs, possess.

-----

Over in the Darwin's "dark future" timeline, it's noted that the Federation begins fielding Thunderbolt PFs in alt-Y198.

Should the proposed "dark future" product be more fully realized at some point, one of the ships I'd like to see in sch a product would be a "GPX": a modification of the GVX to equip a flotilla of PFs, rather than a squadron of F-111s.

Design-wise, the semi-external fighter mech-links on the GVX could be swapped out on a 1-for-1 basis with PF mech-links, as seen on other conjectural-in-the-standard-timeline Federation PF tender SSDs.

A bigger question might be where to put some repair boxes. For that, perhaps the precedent of the COV - which reduces the GSC's cargo capacity to make room for Barracks boxes - could be borrowed here; say, if four cargo boxes were replaced with repair boxes.

While a combat flotilla of PFs would be deployed against the Andromedans, a "survey flotilla" could be assigned to support the ship in a pure survey role, akin to how the historical GVX was assigned those HTSs between Y186 and Y190.

-----

Of course, the standard timeline Feds will not have such an option.

But I was still wondering if, for those empires which historically deploy fast patrol ships, there might be a means of echoing what the "dark future" Feds could do with the proposed "GPX".

Or to put it another way, if historical survey cruisers can be modified to act as light (or medium) carriers or as commando ships, while still retaining enough of a "survey" capacity to fulfill their primary mission when called upon to do so, would it be too far a step to consider a further adaptation towards the PF tender role?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, January 26, 2021 - 04:03 pm: Edit

The Colin Powell is not going to get Survey PFTs going.

Six F-111s plus deck crews adds up to about 6-7 crew units over an and above the normal ships crew, so you are deleting six or seven crew to have them. It takes 19 crew units to man a flotilla os PFs. That is to CREW THE PFs. It does not count the crew manning the repair systems.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, January 26, 2021 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Steve, that point was addressed earlier.

It was the part about reducing the number of F-111 heavy fighters to 1 or perhaps 2 for planetary survey missions, (and making up the difference in shuttle bay assignments with more admin shuttles.)

That should mean the F-111 wing personnel could be reduced to 1 or 2 crew units instead of 6 or 7.

(See Tuesday, January 19, 2021 11:29 PM post.)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, January 27, 2021 - 10:07 am: Edit

SPP,

In that case, perhaps a pair of the remaining cargo boxes could be replaced with Barracks boxes, so as to house the required crew units? As in, the proposed "GPX" would then have 4 Cargo, 2 Barracks, and 2 Repair boxes.

Failing that, would it at least be possible for the Powell in the "dark future" to take "casual" PFs - say, a PFQ and PFL - or would its role as a heavy fighter carrier forestall this? (I wasn't quite clear if the rule preventing heavy fighter carriers from also being PFTs extended to cover "casual" PFs or not.)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, January 27, 2021 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

You do realize that Barracks boxes are not comfortable quarters for long term occupation? A Troop Transport does not always have marines aboard, it is designated for the scenario. And the Cargo Boxes are not "superfluous," they are there to give the Galactic Survey ship its Endurance?

Rule (J10.0) Establishes that heavy fighters have crews of three - to four (an F-111 might have more, but the rule says what it says). Six F-111s thus have crews of 18 to 24. Roughly two crew units. Ten Deck Crews required to service the six F-111s (again by the rule, note that I am NOT excluding two deck crews but assuming the two casual deck crews are absorbed into this as per the rules on carriers). So 10 deck crews is five crew units. Plus he two crew units of F-111 Crews is 6-7 crew units. This is in the rules, and the ship has to create space and plan life support for them, which means they replace some crew on the ship and scientists are what makes room for them, you cannot give up ship crew needed to operate the ship.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, January 27, 2021 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick:

I realize your answer your answer to Gary Carney rules out Heavy fighter (F-111) survey carriers.

That said, as Gary pointed out, there is at least one published scenario (captains log#40) where the GVX Powell, at a time it was assigned to survey duty, was equipped with a full squadron of F-111 heavy fighters and engaged the Space Manta in year 206.

It would seem, if there was a significant threat, a GSC or other variant (such as the GVX) could be used when needed.

Is the Federation alone able to do this? Or could other heavy fighter using empires do so? (Such as the Kzinti.)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, January 27, 2021 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

The fact is that the Year of that story and scenario slipped by. The fault round about is mine. If you check Captain's Log #38, I wrote an article dealing with using labs to gather information (which meant going to get the rules for legendary officers and probes and, yes, EW fighters). The Space Manta did not exist. I created a "notional" monster for purposes of the example article and selected the GVX because it has all the things I needed for the article (I do not know if any other ship in the game universe did and I was trying to keep the example article simple, but complete). I did not establish a date (could just as easily been Y183). Randy Green was inspired to create the Fiction Story in Captain's Log #40 and writing the scenario which jean and SVC insisted I had to do, kept me distracted from researching the date, i.e., I thought that since they were so enamored that they had checked the background and confirmed the date. (Still my fault, I should have checked the ship's background, but having to create the scenario from scratch kept me distracted.)

So, no, I am not going to say this opens the door for what you want. It is an error as written.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, January 27, 2021 - 10:03 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick:

It was not my intention to lay blame, though in this instance it sounds like it was a “management by committee “ error.

I assumed that the scenario would have been reviewed before publication. Even knowing now what the circumstance was, I expect that in future products I will make the same assumption. As discussed before, the number of errors I have encountered over the years is still less than can be counted on the digits of one hand.

Still, the rules allow a Fed GSC to carry 2 F-18 fighters as part of the flight group, and still allow the ship to complete planetary survey missions. In fact, the current rules allow a player to replace 2 single space fighters with 1 x 2 space heavy fighter.

Still trying to figure out why a GVX with 1 x2 space F-111 can’t conduct said planetary survey.

By Randy Green (Hollywood750) on Wednesday, January 27, 2021 - 10:31 pm: Edit

Actually, the Captain neglected to mention in the ship's log, that even though the GVX was on survey duty at the time, a couple of F-111s had been (very) temporarily assigned. Possibly because of some intel passed on to Star Fleet from, perhaps, entirely unofficial sources, that "something unknown and potentially, very dangerous" had probably, (although,sadly, unverifiable) caused the loss of some Orion, uh merchant ships, in the area that the GVX was about to survey.

So, error, I think not. Just incomplete accounting. (Looks knowingly at the audience).

At least, that's how I would have tried to explain it, if I had been the author of said story. ;8-)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, January 28, 2021 - 05:15 am: Edit

Casual PFs come with crews (most of the time).

CW PFTs would never work for survey duty. They lack the range and facilities. There aren't a lot of CA PFTs but they could be made to work, sort of, maybe if you swapped around some internals (more labs).

A second probe launcher is handy but not a deal breaker.

The problem is you're trying to define a "peacetime unit that would be useful in war", but you are doing that during the war when the underlying unit was invented. Nobody is designing peacetime units then.

At the end of the war, I could see converting any leftover CA PFTs into survey units. They might have some value hunting Andro RTN bases without refit but remember that the RTN wasn't discovered until considerably later by which time almost all CA PFTs were scrapped or destroyed by Andros.

Indeed, most survey is done by freighters and free traders. Survey cruisers have the most outlying

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, January 28, 2021 - 11:57 am: Edit

Jeff Wile:

A GSC carrying two F-18s through F-18Cs has what impact on the ship. seriously?

Yes, there is some modification to the ship itself (you have to install the ready racks after all). But two fighters replace two shuttles, the ship's two Casual Deck Crews are retrained to be Deck Crews and the shuttle pilots are replaced by fighter pilots (okay, putting in the bar for the pilots to carouse in might also take some effort), but putting in two F-18s is essentially no change. And you can easily swap out the fighters for normal shuttles if you needed to.

However, putting in even ONE (1) F-111 is problematic. You are not simply installing ready racks, you are ripping open the hull to install the F-111 ready rack which has to be "semi-external." Replacing the F-111 with admin shuttles is not really a good idea because only one (1) can take its place. And the crew size (compared to two F-18s) means you are giving up some scientists for the fighter.

There is also the theory that you are thus justifying through the back door the "Casual F-111 Refit" which has been rejected by SVC in the past. So the answer is no.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, January 28, 2021 - 03:22 pm: Edit

SPP,

As an alternative, could it be an option for the Powell to retain two of its F-111s while swapping the other four out for heavy transport shuttles in the post-Unity era?

To put it another way, even once the pace of anti-Andromedan operations begins to wind down in the wake of Operation Unity, the Survey Area would still likely be a more dangerous place than it was prior to the Powell's prior recall in Y190. Thus, rather than swap out the entire F-111 squadron for the six heavy transport shuttles the ship had operated from its semi-external mech links between Y186 and Y190, perhaps the admirals of the Second Fleet might have deemed it worth retaining at least a pair of F-111s as added support for the Powell's survey operations. (Or rather, as added cover for the shuttles, if not for the ship itself.)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, January 28, 2021 - 05:12 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

No.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, January 28, 2021 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Sigh.

You are fixated in F-111s which are fairy rare, have a larger footprint (maintenance and crew burden). If you are going to have two F-111s, you are gong to be use two crew units to support them (two deck crews plus the two four man crews of the fighters, the two casual deck crews would simply be retained and are not counted in the total). For a mission of supporting survey missions (the EW pod that could be carried by one of the fighters is not a good planetary or even deep space survey item).

Let me propose a different solution.

Two F-18Cs replacing two admin shuttles and using the HTS shuttles for planetary survey.

Two F-18Cs are no crew effect (they use the two Casual Deck Crews converted to Deck Crews and only have single pilots so replace the shuttles pilots.

Other than you want the F-111s, two F-18Cs could do the job you want and are not as rare as F-111s or take the foot print of them.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, January 29, 2021 - 12:22 am: Edit

Steve Petrick:

I have no doubt that you are correct about using a GSC and the difficulty in adapting it to operate one F-111.

What you did not address was using a GVX (in this instance, the U.S.S. Powell.) with One F-111 and 5 HTS cargo shuttles, and 2 admin shuttles to conduct planetary surveys.

If the problem is the F-111 heavy fighter, would the GVC have to be refitted to operate a F-101 heavy fighter?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, January 29, 2021 - 01:54 am: Edit

You have fighters, or you do not. What's the point of one?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, January 29, 2021 - 06:05 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

Your Concept is thus the Survey ship will only survey one (1) site at a time so that the fighter can provide protection.

The extra shuttles were always meant to provide for the ship to survey multiple sites simultaneously. Heavy shuttles could obviously be tricked out for longer missions away. You know, where they land and stay for a while, longer than a fighter could hover around over watching them.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, January 29, 2021 - 06:40 pm: Edit

If you REALLY need a Survey PFT, just take the Lyran SR with a PFT pallet. Or the CONJ NSR.