Well if it is after you have used a WS-2or 3 scatter pack. Or you load it turn 1 on a empty shuttle. Then combined with the scatter pack shuffle. ( launching shuttles to confuse the other player as to witch is the scatter pack). It could be of use then.

Other wise just a waste of a shuttle.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Cheaper Tiny Energy Module

Mike West
USS Texas

If ever tempted to use the ESU energy module SSU in a BPV battle, consider using an MCP cargo (or MMP mine) MWP instead. The reason is because the ESU has a combat BPV of 10, while the MCP has a combat BPV of 5 and the MMP has a combat BPV of 7. This means you can get twice as many MCP as ESU for the same cost. Despite the reduced BPV, the MCP is harder to kill and can actually move, increasing its survivability. The disadvantage is that if it is destroyed, you lose 25 BPV instead of just 10. And it can take longer to dissipate power from the PA panels.

There are, of course, other considerations, but if taking an ESU anyway, consider getting an MCP instead and put the BPV to use elsewhere.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, November 12, 2020 - 09:54 am: Edit

Oops. In the above paper, it should say that you will lose 15 BPV instead of just 10, not 25. Sorry for the mistake.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, November 12, 2020 - 12:29 pm: Edit

I'm no expert, but I think I might see two problems with your idea, Mike.

First, it's my understanding that, when establishing battle group BPVs, we're supposed to use the economic BPV. I don't have my books in front of me right now, but if I read your proposal correctly, it might undermine the primary reason for the idea.

The second possible problem, and yes, this is trying to pull things directly from memory when I should crack open a book, is that there is a specific rule in the S section prohibiting players from using cargo as "Damage Padding;" a rule that, if both my memory AND interpretation are correct, might also invalidate your idea, at least for the cargo MWP.

Still, if this idea passes muster from better SFU folks than me, those couple extra BPV you get could make the difference between victory and what I invariably face.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, November 12, 2020 - 02:51 pm: Edit

You could be correct on the "don't use cargo variants like that" idea.

On the other point, it is my understanding that when constructing a BPV fleet you use the *combat* BPV to construct the fleet. But, you use the *economic* BPV for victory conditions.*

So, that means a ship with a BPV of 15/5 would cost you 5 BPV to "buy" for building your forces, but your opponent would get 15 BPV for killing it. Likewise, a ship with a BPV of 20/40 (like a PF) would cost you 40 BPV to "buy" for building your forces, but your opponent would only get 20 BPV for killing it.

The point is to allow the building of "fair" fights, but reward (or penalize) the players in victory based on how important (or not) the kills are.

[*] The one exception is ships with scout channels. The above procedure only works if the ship is alone. In any other context, a ship with scout channels (e.g. scout or PFT) pays economic BPV for fleet construction and awards economic BPV for victory purposes.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 12, 2020 - 03:34 pm: Edit

(S8.54) CARGO SHIPS (including freighters, cargo ships, cargo pods, cargo packs, cargo pallets, and cargo PFs) cannot be included unless the mission of the scenario is to deliver cargo (or is a convoy, etc.). Players may, when designing the scenario, choose to allow the fleet assigned to deliver cargo an extra allowance for such ships, or may require it to spend a part of the normal allowance for them.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, November 12, 2020 - 04:15 pm: Edit

OK. Fair enough.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, November 16, 2020 - 06:42 pm: Edit

Try 2:

More Flexible Energy Module
Mike West
USS Texas

If your Andromedan mothership is to carry an Energy Module, don't. Instead, take the equivalent number of Small Energy Support Units. A Medium Energy Module has 8 PA panels and costs 40 BPV. A Small Energy Support Unit has 2 PA panels and costs 10 BPV. Four Small Energy Support Units can replace a single Medium Energy Module, meaning the cost and number of PA panels evens out.

There is one disadvantage of using the Small Energy Support Units: clearing them all from the ship requires four transporter operations rather than just one. However, the advantages are significant. First, it takes way more damage to kill them all. It takes 26 points of damage to destroy a full Medium Energy Module. But, it takes a full 56 points to kill all four Small Energy Support Units. Second, each unit can be transported when it is full, meaning that you don't have to wait for all to get full; you can pick and choose. This means that you can risk only one at a time, rather than the whole system at once, saving points if they are destroyed. Third, since they are SSUs, some (or all) can be replaced with MWPs, if that gives more flexibility.

Alternative Small Energy Support Units
Mike West
USS Texas

If you are taking Small Energy Support Units, consider replacing some or all of them with MWPs. A Small Energy Support Unit is just 2 PA panels (with extra "armor" protecting those PA panels), while an MWP is a tiny ship that also contains 2 PA panels.

You can replace a single one with a Mine MWP (MMP). This MMP can take 1-4 of the T-bombs from your force. Also, it has 2 transporters. Consider putting a pair of boarding parties on it, and transport them, rather than T-bombs. Either way, you get a mobile transporter unit, it still has the 2 PA of the Small Energy Support Unit, *and* it is cheaper, too! (The enemy gets more points if they destroy it, but it saves you 3 points while building your force.) You can only take one, but it can be very helpful.

You can replace others with Ground Assault MWPs (MGP). This costs the same number of points while building your fleet (10), but costs more if they are destroyed (15). However, they are *extremely* valuable as each MGP comes equipped with 10 boarding parties. This means that each MGP literally pays for itself with its boarding parties! There does not seem to be any particular limit to how many MGP can be carried.

So, rather than carry a Medium Energy Module, instead, carry one MMP and three MGP. This actually costs fewer points (37 instead of 40), still provides the extra eight PA panels, provides 30 extra boarding parties, and provides two extra transporters to deliver those boarding parties or T-bombs.

Alternatively, carry four MGP and never launch them. They now serve the exact same purpose as a Small Energy Support Unit, but they give 10 extra boarding parties each (for a total of 40).

------------------------
Additional comments ...

Wow. That MGP is pretty handy. Those 10 free boarding parties literally pay for the whole unit! Even if you can only get one, that is still very useful and very handy. But, I don't see any limits to how many of them can be used, so I went for it.

As an independent unit, MWPs are thoroughly underwhelming. That max speed of 21 is a *huge* killer that probably results in them becoming dead pretty quickly. *But*, as Energy Module replacements they suddenly gain a lot of utility! They give as many PA panels as the Energy Module, and provide the potential for a lot of extra utility. If I ever do an Andro Battleforce for SFB, I will definitely look to abuse MWPs as much as possible, starting with the MGP.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Tuesday, November 17, 2020 - 01:19 pm: Edit

The MGP (R10.51) has Barracks, you would probably need to pay for BPs.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, November 17, 2020 - 08:04 pm: Edit

Honestly, I thought so, too, before I wrote it. But, based on the PF and MWP rules, it would appear that the 10 boarding parties on a PFG, and therefore the MGP, are included for free. This isn't that big of a deal for actual PFGs, but becomes critical for the MGP because of its very low cost.

I am more than willing to be wrong, but I don't see anything stopping this. I don't have the latest MRB, however, so I could have missed something along the way. But having this be an "edge case" would not be surprising. MWPs are so low cost and (from what I can tell) never used, so I doubt any real exploration of the limits of these units has been done.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, November 18, 2020 - 05:23 pm: Edit

I know that when you buy a Commando ship it comes with the BPs. I also know if i put a Barracks box on a Jindo or Orion. They do not come with BPs but it does allow one to buy 10 more BPs over what you are allowed with COs.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, November 18, 2020 - 06:10 pm: Edit

That is true for barracks.

In (R10.51) it says MGP is capable of carrying up to 5 crew units (ten Boarding parties) of passengers.

The SSD show 10 BPs and 2 Barracks, if it has the 10bp plus the barracks, then that could be up to 30 Boarding parties on an MGP (unless the maximum is 5 crew units as noted above). Or do the PF size MGPs have smaller Barrack capacity?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 05:00 pm: Edit

PF barracks use different rules. The general PFG rules are found at (R1.PF3). A PFG can only ever carry 10 boarding parties (plus the default one a PF comes with). For an MGP, that'd be just 10, as there is no "plus one" for an MWP.

The wording of the rules I have (which are admittedly vintage) says, "[a]ll ground assault PFs have 10 additional boarding parties ..." It also specifically states they cannot buy more (though some can be swapped out for specialists).

That said, the specific MGP rule says, "... they were capable of carrying up to five crew units (ten boarding parties) ..." This could easily mean they don't get the boarding parties for free. I was thinking that the PF rules would serve as a basis for the MWP rules, but I could be totally wrong on that.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 05:53 pm: Edit

Thank you for the direction to the PFG rules.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, December 09, 2020 - 09:36 am: Edit

Update on the MGP term paper:

If it is determined that you don't get the BP for free (which, quite frankly, is what I expect to eventually happen) then the core of the paper is still valid. It just has to be reworded to say that they can be used to carry the ship's native BP and that they allow the force to purchase vastly more BP that would otherwise be possible. This is still useful, though (appropriately) more expensive. Just carrying one gives you access to 10 more BP that your force should otherwise be allowed to carry.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, December 09, 2020 - 10:21 am: Edit

I don't remember seeing this, nor do I remember seeing a rule that invalidates this. But, this seems like a loophole. So, I'll put this here and see if it is valid ...

Burn Those Batteries
Mike West
USS Texas

If you know your Andromedan ship needs to empty batteries for whatever reason, don't transport junk into space or tractor rocks. That does so little and wastes the system used. Instead, use reserve power to allocate general tractor energy. Note that (G7.351) says that this can only be done at the end of an impulse, but it becomes general allocated "tractor" energy, so it could even be used to tractor things if you want. The reason for doing this is because there is absolutely no limit to the amount of energy that may be allocated. Literally any amount, from 1 to the full current contents of the batteries, can be so expended. This allows you to manage your power to the point.

The real power of this is that you never have to worry about how aggressive to make your battery burn rate. Hold back everything you don't need to spend, then dump exactly what is needed as general tractor at the point you need it.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, December 09, 2020 - 01:17 pm: Edit

(D10.7) Power Resolution on Andro Ships

Andromedan ships are closed energy systems. Unlike other ships, unused energy from batteries for various functions is returned to the ship’s batteries or PA panels, rather than being lost. Many players have searched for ways to empty their batteries of power; some of the methods they have found are not possible, practical, or legal. See (D10.74).

Basically if you allocate your batteries to tractor, and then do not use the tractors, the battery power is still in the batteries.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, December 09, 2020 - 02:32 pm: Edit

Ah, OK! Thanks! I figured it was a loophole, I just couldn't find it. That's what I needed.

Again, thanks!

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, December 09, 2020 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Mike West:

It is not a problem, it is just one of those things you read and did not internalize (when does that not happen to all of us?), and I just happened to be able to (despite my failing memory) remember there was something specific about that. Even so, I did not go to the correct place when I initially started looking, but fortunately suffered a blinding recall of where it was.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 06:56 pm: Edit

I can't remember if this has been done before.

Michael C. Grafton
USS South Carolina

Pseudo Scatter Packs

If your opponent makes a habit of "narrow salvoing" a couple or three disruptors at range to pop your SP shuttle, consider dropping off a manned shuttle first and letting her waste some of that firepower...

Usually, if you are closing, they will fire when they transition to a better range bracket or the 7th impulse after it emerged. THEN you drop the real scatter pack.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 07:01 pm: Edit

Electronic Warfare for the Defense

Michael C. Grafton
USS New Mexico

When closing and using a ECM drone for protection you may see that drone picked off losing you it's protection right before their alpha strike.

What you can do to partially compensate for that is self generate 4 defensive EW. Thus even if your drone gets picked off you can keep your two shift...

Alternately generate 1 point and you get a 2 shift until the drone is killed and 1 thereafter.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 08:15 pm: Edit

You know that's assuming that your foe is generating 0 ECCM, which is not a given ...

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 08:18 pm: Edit

Mike,

Manned Shuttles are immediately id'd as such, very few would bother killing one in that manner....
Depending on the speed of your ships and your opponents, most times they would get ignored....

Kind of a waste, you might need it as a SS or WW....

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Don't send a manned one, send a pseudo SS or SP.

As to waste of a shuttle, depends on the game, if you are something like a Fed with more shuttles than drones, depending on the setup, it can be a viable choice.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, February 02, 2021 - 10:18 am: Edit

"Manned shuttles are immediately identified as such?"

Where does it say that for normal games as opposed to introductory games? You do not know if a shuttle (of fighter) for that matter is manned until it does something an unmanned shuttle (or fighter) cannot do. Or have I been playing the game wrong all this time?