I'm not too fond of the idea of a Device that is really effective against a couple of Empires but useless against the others. Still, you could argue that the IPG has very limited use against Shuttles (if they get Really Close), which means it is worth something against everyone else in that respect.

It doesn't make sense to add a Second One when you haven't quite justified the First One's Existence (against Empires that do not use Drones). However, making it more difficult to kill by changing it to a FLAG hit is a perfect modification.

I think, conceptually, treat the IPG as an ADD when looking at Ship Design and Balance. By comparing how the Two are Treated (between All the Ships in Tournament Play), you can arrive at a Fair Solution.

4 Energy for 4 Damage is a Terrible Ratio, but if it saves using Phasers and Tractor Beams, then it is worth the Extra Energy.

Perhaps instead of focusing on the IPG to make the Vudar more Balanced (against All Ships), it might be worth looking at the Ion Cannons and Phasers (Quantity, Arcs, etc.)? Any changes to those items will affect All Opponents of the Vudar, whether they use Drones or Not.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Norman wrote:
>>I'm not too fond of the idea of a Device that is really effective against a couple of Empires but useless against the others. Still, you could argue that the IPG has very limited use against Shuttles (if they get Really Close), which means it is worth something against everyone else in that respect.>>

In regular play, the IPG produces EW as well, but that is a non starter in tournament play. So in tournament play, the IPG is good drone defense, and not much else.

>>It doesn't make sense to add a Second One when you haven't quite justified the First One's Existence (against Empires that do not use Drones).>>

Well, all the Vudar cruisers have 2 of them. And this TC had 2 of them originally, and then the second one got pulled out when (IIRC) we were experimenting with it having the EW function (which was a disaster, unsurprisingly). Having 2 of them likely makes the ship way too drone proof. But having only one of them means it will never be able to be used past the first volley of some internals--the ISC and Tholians that only have one important weapon (PPD and WC) get protection items (rear Fs and snare, by virtue of tweaked damage rules); the Andro has the disdev and nothing to protect it, but it is also hit on FLAG, so it doesn't blow up quite that often.

>>4 Energy for 4 Damage is a Terrible Ratio, but if it saves using Phasers and Tractor Beams, then it is worth the Extra Energy.>>

It isn't a terrible ratio if that 4 damage kills 6 drones at once. Or heck, even 2 or 3.

>>Perhaps instead of focusing on the IPG to make the Vudar more Balanced (against All Ships), it might be worth looking at the Ion Cannons and Phasers (Quantity, Arcs, etc.)? Any changes to those items will affect All Opponents of the Vudar, whether they use Drones or Not.>>

I don't think those factors are likely to go anywhere. The ship is pretty standard as it is (4 reasonably hard hitting torps, 6xP1, 4x backup phasers, good power). The only thing wonky is the IPG, and you want a Vudar to have an IPG or two, as, well, it is a Vudar. I can't imagine that anyone is willing to invent special new rules for the IPG (i.e. *some* EW or being able to degrade plasma or something), but maybe getting it hit on FLAG is something that TPTB would consider.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 02:25 pm: Edit

Thanks Peter!

I didn't know the Original Vudar TC had 2 IPG's. Good to know. Interesting that the EW Playtest turned out to be a Disaster. I was going to suggest trying to add that feature.

Ah well. I suppose the Vudar TC will just get relegated to some lower tier of the Tournament Ship Hierarchy...

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 02:26 pm: Edit

After playing against a Vudar - even if I didn't exactly cover myself in glory with decision making, it's clear the Vudar has obvious rock paper scissors preferences. The IPG (and heavy direct fire) make the Vudar a house against D+D and probably the WAX; I'm not optimistic about chances against plasma or an Orion.

[In the former case, maximum DF heavy weapon damage is only 48, so you can't, for instance, take 50 plasma to get your shot. In the latter, well, an Orion is probably happy to trade alphas on a big brick at R4 and then mug you after you blow off his cargo bay.]

That isn't bad (lots of ships have RPS preferences, some even stronger than the Vudar, probably).

A second IPG would probably make sense (in part because the base cruiser has it). The Vudar doesn't have great phasers (Fed phasers, but with two of the P1 downgraded to P2s and worse arcs), so it seems unlikely it is going to be overpowered.

It's presence in the tournament probably hurts the drone ships most (and they are mostly pretty good), particularly the 4 drone ships [WAX, WBS, Kzinti) and maybe the scatter pack ships (Klingon, Kzinti). Even though I'm now playing the Klingon a lot, I feel okay about that; the Vudar isn't overpowering or anything, and I lost fair and square to a better captain. I'd be happy to run a Klingon against a Vudar (or a 2 IPG Vudar) again.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 04:02 pm: Edit

I dunno that the Vudar is gonna be that hopeless against plasma; it is reasonably fast (40 power, the torps are cheaper to arm than photons), it hits better at R8 than the Fed does (marginally, but still), the 2xFX ICs can help snipe while running.

It probably does enough damage in close to make the Plasma ship think twice about just trying to run it over, and at middle ranges, it'll do some ok damage through a flank shield.

I mean, I don't think it is gonna do globally *great* against plasma, but I don't think it is terrible.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Gregg(Kli) over Romwe(ATC). Not sure what game it actually is, since the tree isn't posted yet.

By David Cheng (Davec) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Kingzilla (Romulan FireHawk) defeats DaveC (LDR)

When I logged-in and started EA for the game tonight, I discovered mistake #57.

We stopped at the end of turn 6. Seth fired his S-Torps in 5 and 6. Thus, he can fast-load an S this turn, 7.

Only if Seth is grossly incompetent could I move to engage him and not sustain crippling damage. The fast-F followed by 4 Ph1s will gut me.

So, I conceded before we really got going.

Good luck to the Romulans on their march toward conquest of the field.

On another note, a shadowy figure from the distant past has reappeared.

Mark Russman!

Look for him (Phaser4) in the Bullpen, looking to shake off rust! And hopefully in person at Council this autumn!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, February 02, 2021 - 08:27 am: Edit

Whoah! Blasting from the past! Ing!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, February 02, 2021 - 10:39 am: Edit

Game 2.1 (I think?), bakija (VUD) vs madman (THN)

Sunday, 2/7 at 2:00pm ET.

Apparently there is some football game that day?

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Tuesday, February 02, 2021 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Not to worry Peter
the game is called the Superbowl.
It starts at 6:30 or so, so you can still watch it.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Tuesday, February 02, 2021 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Current standings?

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Tuesday, February 02, 2021 - 01:14 pm: Edit

Spartan TKR v Droid 11g1
T 2 I hit the barrier and weaseled. Acceled to 5 on 2.27.

Turn 3 I went 5/10/15 Brick on 1.. shook off late turn phaser fire. Launched 4 drones

T4 I went 15/20/24 I paid for my weaseling sins by eating an enveloper after shooting it with 7 p-3s. I chased Spartan all turn while he stayed at distance.. I did not launch any more drones. We are playing the ""turning with each other while I eat envelopers and get no damage in return game""... I will be eligible to go speed 31 on 5.27, barring any, ahem, sudden deceleration. We saved here.

He's got some internals but has repaired a battery and his C torp. I have shield damage which is becoming a concern
Should continue in the AM...

Spartan is no joke.

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Tuesday, February 02, 2021 - 02:32 pm: Edit

In a pretty tight game where a round 1 exchange chewed alot of power away from both ships, I was able to win in Klingon by HETing and getting in on Archeo as web went down. This was a good casual game with Romwe and I enjoyed it alot.
Gregg KLI wins vs Romwe Archeo Tholian

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Tuesday, February 02, 2021 - 07:29 pm: Edit

MadJack (Shark) versus Kingzilla (RFH)

Going to start the game tonight 8:45p eastern. Probably only get a turn or 2 in.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, February 03, 2021 - 11:55 am: Edit

MadJack (Shark) versus Kingzilla (RFH)

We made it through 6 turns. Unlike the last game, I have hit with everything I have shot. Something like 19 out of 20 on disrupters. Obviously that doesn't help Seth. This match up is tough enough as it is.

Game is still too close to call. I mean it's possible I will forget to put up shields or something.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 03, 2021 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Ok, trying to build tree here:

R1:

HYD (SonOfSumaryJudgement)
NTC (madman)**WINS**

KLI (SummaryJudgement)
VUD (bakija)**WINS**

GBS (bb) (MadJack)**WINS**
ATC (CaptainRon)

RFH (Kingzilla)**WINS**
LDR (DaveC)

BOTTOM OF TREE

Kzinti (Zimdars?)
FED (Majead?)

ATC (Romwe)
KLI (Gregg)**WINS**

RKR (Spartan)
WAX (11g1) (Droid)

HYD (CadetStimpy)**WINS**
Lyran (TheHood)

---------------------

R2:

NTC (madman)
VUD (bakija)

GBS (bb) (MadJack)
RFH (Kingzilla)

Unknown
KLI (Gregg)

Unknown
HYD (CadetStimpy)

I *think* that's where we are currently?

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Wednesday, February 03, 2021 - 12:34 pm: Edit

Spartan and I played another turn today.
We should be able to finish Friday AM

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, February 03, 2021 - 06:05 pm: Edit

Kingzilla (RFH) defeat MadJack (Shark)

Seth wins in a come from behind victory. I took 2 full envelopers only to mostly roll 5's (twice).

I am not hurt that bad but he just isn't hurt bad enough.

Good luck Seth!!

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, February 04, 2021 - 04:44 am: Edit

Great games

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Thursday, February 04, 2021 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Any news on the Kzinti / Fed Matchup?

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Friday, February 05, 2021 - 01:44 pm: Edit

I have not heard from David yet to try and reschedule our game. Last week David forgot. But it happens.
If we can't manage to get together due to our time difference then I will bow out till next tourney so some one else can get the game done easier.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Saturday, February 06, 2021 - 10:38 am: Edit

Spartan and Droid just finished.
Spartan beat me but it was nip and tuck.
If he doesn't write it up I will next time I get a chance.

I believe Stimpy the Hydran is next for Geof?

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Saturday, February 06, 2021 - 10:39 am: Edit

I will be up for a re-entry if that helps at all...

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Saturday, February 06, 2021 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Tree is up on the website. Sorry for the delay on getting it posted.

BTW, if you need for me to jump just tell me.

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Saturday, February 06, 2021 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Steve my time difference seems to be an issue here with David. I do not mind missing this one and entering the next. Think David may find it easier to arrange a time to play.
Majead