Question on Tractor rotation (G7.7)

The Tournament ships are considered to be the same size for rotation (G7.715),

In Peter Bakija game it was noted,

"Before the turn starts, I rotate him to R2, allowing me to push him to a hex where I wasn't in his FA anymore (as you can rotate to R2 and pick any of the 3 hexes in front of you when you do that)."

In (G7.715) If two ships are of equal size, there is no rotation although a ship maintaining a tractor link can pull the other ship one hex closer (or into the same hex if already adjacent) or push it one hex further away. The relative orientation of the two ships relative to the map directions will remain fixed, i.e., if one ship is in direction B from the other, any rotation will maintain that general facing at all times (tactical maneuvers, turn, or HETs, might change the relative shield facings).

My understanding is you can only pick any of the three hexes to rotate a ship to if the ship in tractor is a smaller size.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 10, 2021 - 04:22 pm: Edit

If the ships are the same size, you can't move the ship around your ship, correct.

But if the ships are the same size, you can push them a hex further or pull them a hex closer. When you push them a hex further, you must maintain relative facing. But if you look at the map, if I am facing A, and have a ship in tractor in front of me (i.e. also A), and push them 1 hex away, there are three hexes in front of my ship at R2, all of which are still in direction A (for example, if I am in 1710, my opponent is in 1709, I can push them to R2 in hexes 1608, 1708, or 1808, all of which are at R2, and also still in direction A from my ship, so relative facings are maintained.

Using that same example, I could *not* push them to 1909 (2 hexes, now in direction B), as it changes relative facing.

But if you push someone to 2 hexes from 1 hex, you have 3 hexes to choose from, generally speaking, and the tractor rotation rules explicitly indicate that in instances where you can choose a hex of 2 or 3, the ship using the tractor gets to choose (G7.715, last paragraph).

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, February 10, 2021 - 06:32 pm: Edit

I had read the last paragraph. I also read that that was when both ships are maintaining a tractor link (to each other) and both wish to conduct rotation.
And then it says later (the fourth if),
if only one ship wants to do rotation, it does so within the rules. If there are two (or three) possible hexes into which the other ship could be pushed/pulled, the player conducting the rotation may select either one.

I can see where I am getting confused about it.

all good

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Wednesday, February 10, 2021 - 06:38 pm: Edit

3.1 madman THN vs kingzilla RFH
2/11/21 @ 6pm est

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 11, 2021 - 07:29 am: Edit

Wayne,

Yeah, it is a complicated and obscure situation in the rules (surprising!), but in the end, it shakes out this way. It is likely that not a lot of folks realize that the rules work like this (how often does one win a tractor auction over a turn break and then benefit from rotating the tractor ship a hex away?), but maybe now a few more will :-)

Like, historically, the person I saw using tractor rotation most often in tournament play over the years was my buddy Chris Proper, but he was always trying to win the tractor auction to pull his opponent to range 0 into the two suicide shuttles he had just launched on impulse 32.

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Thursday, February 11, 2021 - 11:36 am: Edit

In my round 1 game I did a tractor rotation into my hex because I didnt want miss with disruptors!

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Thursday, February 11, 2021 - 12:16 pm: Edit

I saw that rotation thing that Peter did. It's a basic rule I never knew in like 35 years of playing. I have read the top half of that rule probably dozens of time and glazed over the bottom.

Much more often I am going to be putting 1 point in tractor cause like you never know how handy that might be.

I wonder what other sneaky sh** Peter knows.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 11, 2021 - 12:29 pm: Edit

>>Much more often I am going to be putting 1 point in tractor cause like you never know how handy that might be.>>

Heh. You need to get the tractor, and then win the auction over the turn break during EA, as rotation happens right before impulse 1.

But still, if you have an opponent tractored at the end of the turn, you got options.

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Thursday, February 11, 2021 - 08:47 pm: Edit

OMG RFH epic disaster - T1 RFH launches S r15 when we coming towards each other. Tholian lays web between us and plasma. Then as we both where about fly by by each other, we both turn for the face off. T1 long story short I take 3 ol 5 p1 on my 2 when my reinforcement was on my 1. I launch f and both plasmas trapped in web. Imp 32 Tholian in the web with no damage and I have 7 basic internals and we r 2 - my 1/6 facing his ¾ shield.
T2 I trac Tholian while he is in the web with 6 energy, RFH is going speed 6 & Tholian speed 10 from the trac. Imp 10 web comes down after fire and its about to get interesting, I launch 80 points of plasma. Imp 11 RFM moves and HETs away so the Tholian moves in the hex that the 80 points of plasma moves into. Only one bad thing can happen to the RFH is rolling a 6 for breakdown. RFH rolls a 6 and captains suffers head injury and we are all at a loss to what happens next. Madman in process of posting on boards the question so we get this right.

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Thursday, February 11, 2021 - 09:40 pm: Edit

So there is a question in the Rules Q&A on the above. Can we get an answer. It's overly long and broken into multiple parts but I'm hoping to make sure I understand this and we get it right.

Thanks,

Dana

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, February 11, 2021 - 11:23 pm: Edit

"T2 I trac Tholian while he is in the web with 6 energy, RFH is going speed 6 & Tholian speed 10 from the trac."

Seth, I think when you did tractor the Tholian ship was outside the web R2, your ship had just moved into the web (no web between ships, and could target along the spine).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 07:23 am: Edit

You can tractor a ship in the web; you can tractor a ship from a web. You just can't tractor a ship when web is between you.

Re: Breakdown.

So you breakdown and super all the breakdown penalties-you stop, possibly tumble, lose a bunch of warp boxes, take some other random internals. But you *don't* lose tracking to seeking weapons (one year at Origins, I needed to figure this out before I did a second HET when there were a bunch of drones about to hit my opponent; the judges and I spent, like, 7 minutes pouring through rulebooks and discovered that, in fact, you don't lose control of seeking weapons when you break down).

So if the TFH breaks down, it suffers breakdown penalties (includes losing the tractor, but I'm not sure), but the plasma keeps going.

[Edit] Now that I have looked at your question, never mind. All of your questions are about movement. I'm pretty sure that the tractored ship does not magically stop when the tractor is broken. I'm pretty sure that the "tractor ship stops moving" statement is in regards to being tractored, as it is no longer tractored when the tractor breaks.

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 09:25 am: Edit

There were no intervening web hexes at time of tractor. The link was along the edge of a web and was legal. The Tholian was not in web, the Roman was in web.

Pete, there are no issues with seeking weapon control if you breakdown. If you tumble I think there are problems. You are under Erratic Maneuvers (C6.553) and units under Erratic can't guide seeking weapons. No issue here as the plasma will self guide (FP4.2).

It doesn't make sense that my ship stops, but as the rules are written I don't think it's completely clear. The rules are written to cover towing a non moving ship and then the section on towing a moving ship says refer to them. It's like you need (G7.3223) rewritten for what happens when you breakdown while towing a moving ship and almost all of it would be the exact same except for a couple words.

Also, important to know if the Romulan automatically tumbles. If the Tholian doesn't stop, then maybe that doesn't apply. It's in the same sentence.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 09:34 am: Edit

Yeah, after writing my response, I went and read your rules question, and was all "Yeah, ok, I see now what is happening".

As noted, yeah, the rules are kind of oddly written here, but I'm fairly certain that (as I mentioned in the rules question spot) the "the tractored ships doesn't move for the rest of the turn" is referring to the movement from the tractor (which is broken), rather than "when the tractoring ship breaks down and the tractor drops, the ship that was in tractor magically and suddenly stops". I think the situation as presented is based on "one ship is moving while towing a non moving ship, and breaks down".

But again, I don't have the rules handy right now, and I'm not a rules authority :-)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Heh, SPP clearly answered all the questions in question in the rules question forum. But the most pertinent information here is that the quoted rule (G7.3223) is specifically under a section called "TRACTORING A NON MOVING UNIT" (G7.32).

So the statement of "the tractored ship doesn't move for the rest of the turn" is predicated on the tractored ship being a non moving unit in the first place :-)

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 03:34 pm: Edit

Yeah, and he said the non moving tractor ship could still move if something else caused it. A different ship establishing a tractor is one option.

The game isn't over, I'm about to eat 80 points of plasma on a back shield. However I'll have the option to shoot 10 phasers into them first and I may have a little reinforcement available. So I'll have 35 internals or so. The Romulan will have about 30 internals. But odds are he will have lost more power, have no armed plasma and if he loses all his batteries maybe no fast loads in 2 turns. Plus I should be able to arrange to end the turn pretty close to him.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 03:44 pm: Edit

(C6.54) , (C6.55) are the relevant rules for this situation (the Romulan ship would need to roll a die to see if tumbling)? The (G7.32) rules is for towing a non-moving ship, I would think that (G7.3223) is not used?

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 04:11 pm: Edit

Steve's answer is Q and A was that tumbling is automatic.

The thing is that under (G7.36) Tractor a Moving Ship it says "All restrictions and conditions of (G7.32) apply to ships moving under (G7.36) except where noted" and "see (G7.3223) for additional restrictions.". So that rule is used but because it was written with a non-moving ship in mind some of the wording could be interpreted differently.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Yes, I just read all the (G7.36) rules saying exactly that (note to self read every rule about the subject).

all good

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Dana wrote:
>>Yeah, and he said the non moving tractor ship could still move if something else caused it. A different ship establishing a tractor is one option.>>

Oh, sure; like I was just clarifying that the reason that (G7.2332) made reference to the tractored ship stopping was 'cause it was under the heading of "Tractoring a non moving ship" :-)

(I didn't have the rules handy this morning to see that :-)

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 05:51 pm: Edit

Anyone know if a Neo-Tholian has won a tournament before?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 06:03 pm: Edit

I'm sure it has won *a* tournament at some point in the last 30 some odd years. I don't know that the NTC has won a *big* tournament, however. I'm pretty sure the ATC has won numerous tournaments, and won some big ones, but the NTC, probably not as much.

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 09:51 pm: Edit

I know Tom Carrol used to run it, but never won Origins with it.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Sunday, February 14, 2021 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Zombie MadJack (Shark) over Gregg (Klingon)

Short friendly slugfest.

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Sunday, February 14, 2021 - 03:58 pm: Edit

In a game of guess wrong and die... I executed a hack and slash, but the shark then turned back on me... and while i was able to fend off all his drones. his 290/26/13/8/3 speed plot left him enough power to overload disruptors which I was not counting on... Once again...