Which is to say, the Andro's either remain just a minor threat or never show up at all.

This leaves the ISC pacification as the primary driver of post GW history--so how does it pan out?

One the one hand, the implication is that nobody is really eager to repeat the General War. None of the strategic issues have changed so nobody can really see a way to "win."

On the other hand, I doubt the various pacification fleets are well recieved. So, what happens? Do we see come kind of alliance to kick the ISC out, or is it primarily an individual thing on the part of varoius empires. Do any empires actively help the ISC, trying to use the pacification to give them more time?

Do we see some great conflict, or a hundred grinding little skirmishes until the ISC decides to go home?

What happens after the ISC gives up the game?

By Steven Zamboni (Szamboni) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 05:58 pm: Edit

We tested that in one campaign, with the Souldra becoming the new Big Bads, crippling the ISC by opening a second front before they can launch the Pacification.

No Andromedan invasion means a number of backwater powers won't be getting trimmed back by Intruder patrols. All of those patrol ships that weren't lost and colonies that weren't destroyed would add up over 20-odd years, and what is puttering around as a minor power in our timeline could have grown into an absolute nuisance in the other.

(What happened to the Cloud without Andromedans? Can they run Unity in reverse after the quadrant fights itself into exhaustion?)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Steven Zamboni:

You are kidding, right? Even if the powers in the Alpha Octant had fought themselves into exhaustion, the overall economies of the Alpha Octant are stronger than the economies of the Cloud (due to sheer scale). The Andromedans were drawing supply and reserves from their home galaxy that and could afford the chain of bases to Alpha and Omega Octants. The Magelllancs would not be so dire a threat (they could not even build dreadnoughts, and only built I believe three Starbases and those were all build by the Maghadim.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 07:07 pm: Edit

The Magellanics might be a threat to EY or middle years forces, but post GW when fleeds tend to be headed by DNH's or BCh's and everyone and their brother is bringing vast numbers of attrition units to every battle to act as a "shield" to their ships? I can't see it.

Which of coures would be a question-- would there need to be a new major threat to "hang" such an era on, or would it be enough to just assume lots of little brushfire conflicts?

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 07:31 pm: Edit

Steven Zamboni: I think just swapping the Andros for another Big Bad isn't what Charles is driving for here, but rather "So let's say the ISC is able to establish its cordons as planned - what happens as the other empires recover from exhaustion?"

As this is deep into "what if" territory, the answer is, of course "whatever we want it to be"! But getting there is part of the fun, and that involves looking at where we are starting in terms of the condition and goals of each of the empires.

The Federation will have learned too well that even their lighter version of the ISC's "peace will inevitably prevail" just doesn't work and will be determined to not repeat it's mistakes leading up to and into the General War. It will fortify its borders, make sure its fleets are robust - and then I see them basically telling the ISC that it's going to ignore the cordons between itself and its Kzinti and Gorn allies and daring them to do something about it.

The Gorn mostly likely will be happy to maintain their borders and fleets, letting the ISC shoulder the bulk of dealing with the Romulans, with an occasional raid or skirmish action just to keep those powers from growing too complacent.

The Romulans have come out of decades of military austerity, the loss of a homeworld, and a bitter civil war. They have the most recovery to do andas much as they believe its their right to rule the galaxy, they realize that now is not the time and so, like the Gorn, will not be particularly aggressive (especially now being sandwiched between two superpowers).

So overall, the eastern side of the sector I imagine being fairly quiet, mostly small border actions that are as much about showing everyone that you aren't to be dimissed but nothing brewing up.

The western half, though - has always been a powder keg and that's not changed. There's so many way things can kick off - an when they do it will probably involve some sudden triggering event along the lines of the loss of the Lyran Emperor's son that lead to the General War kicking off with the invasion of the Kzinti Hegemony. What I would think would make this interesting as opposed to just the Four Powers War This Time With X-ships is a significant realignment of the powers involved: e.g. growing tensions between the Lyrans and Klingons, some WYN-Lyrans finding places within the Hegemony as Cluster liaisons and the like starting to break down the Kzinti-Lyran animosity, etc.

Then something *big* happens and it's the Kzinti and Lyrans declaring war on the Klingons (possibly with WYN Cluster support), smashing the ISC cordons. The Klingons, while recovering much better than the Romulans, are still facing questions on how the will wage war in the new paradigms with rebuilding fleets when the cats come crashing over the border. Being cut off from all their allies of the General War, they finally do what they and the Hydrans could have done all along (and ironically, what the ISC would have loved to see): offer them a treaty wherein the Klingons give up all claim to traditional Hydran space, the Hydrans aid them, and space captured by their alliance will be co-habited by both.

Just to riff something off the cuff.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 08:18 pm: Edit

Alex,
In the scenario (Cats vs Klingons), I could envision
the Federation supporting the Klingons...
Eventhough Kzinti were GW allies, they now become the aggressors...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 08:43 pm: Edit

According to the various Pacification cordon designations in Federation and Empire ISC War, the Concordium did not bother to extend their presence along the Federation-Gorn or Federation-Kzinti Neutral Zones. While they did intervene along the Klingon-Lyran NZ, that would have been deemed by them as necessary in order to reach the NZs surrounding the Hydran Kingdom.

In the absence of an Andromedan invasion of the Alpha Octant, the data in ISC War suggests that the Concordium would have considered further separating the General War belligerents from one another. Just how this would have been done is unclear, but perhaps it would have involved "thickening" the Pacification Enforcement Zones (625.222) and Combatant Exclusion Zones (625.223) on either side of the various Neural Zone corridors.

However, even leaving aside the question of what the belligerent empires would have had to say about any of this, the Concordium itself would likely have started "watching the clock", in terms of keeping the economic basis for the Pacification in place. In F&E terms, the ISC, like the Federation and Klingons, are able to run their economy at "wartime" levels for 15 turns (or 7 and a half years) before the first stage of economic exhaustion kicks in. However, according to (625.515), the ISC had already run their economy at this level for 10 turns (or five years) prior to the onset of the Pacification in Spring Y186. So even in the historical timeline, exhaustion would have started to kick in just as the first wave of the Pacification had been completed, even before taking the onset of the Andromedan invasion into account.

At the very least, I would picture the Concordium taking a closer look at their "wartime production" classes, which historically did not enter full-scale production until after the invasion broke out. They likely would not have turned to the "system" hulls converted in desperation during the Andromedan War, as the circumstances required to field them would not be in play here.

I'd also see them taking greater interest in dealing with the "Vudar question" - perhaps by more formally expanding Cordon Foxtrot (625.F) across the pre-war Klingon-Hydran NZ. According to data in Module R12, the ISC saw the Vudar as an internal Klingon matter for the most part, but insisted that the Enclave withdraw from the three Hydran provinces it had held by the end of the General War.

In any event, the absence of the Andromedans would not necessarily mean that no other outside invaders would pose a problem in the Alpha Octant. We don't know much yet about whether or not the Andromedans had much of an impact on the Xorkaelian Tyranny, but those of us outside of the ADB offices cannot as yet discount the potential for their own invasion of Alpha to kick off in Y210, as it is set to do historically. Indeed, perhaps the Xorka might have showed up earlier in the absence of the Andromedans?

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As for the rest of the Milky Way galaxy, the Omega Octant would still have been faced with a full-scale Souldra invasion at some point, though the timing of it might have varied if the Souldra were planning on going it alone.

On the one hand, this would have likely left the various Omega empires in a stronger position than they had been historically, especially if the Loriyill proceed to end the invasion for them as scheduled. On the other hand, with less pressure being placed upon them, it's likely that the Mæsrons would have withheld samples of "volatile warp" gunboat and first-generation X-technology from their neighbours, likely pushing their development of these systems back by several years. (Plus, with less pressure on them, would the Alunda have accepted the deal that led to their developing pseudo-X "Sig-Tech"?)

While the Vulpa might have had more difficulty slipping out from under the New Alliance's grasp, other powers such as the Omega-Paravians might have emerged as threats sooner than they did historically.

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With no real data on either the Sigma Octant or the Sargasso Storm Zone, it's difficult to speculate on what difference the absence of an Andromedan invasion would have mean for either region of space. However, the Echarri Dynasty, who migrated to the Omega Octant at the onset of the Seventh Cycle, claimed to have fled the Andromedan conquest of their home octant (possibly Sigma). If true, perhaps the Echarri would have stayed at home in a "no Andros" timeline. Or, perhaps, hey would have needed a different cover story for doing so...

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But on a broader note, with no Andromedan invasion to link the Lesser Magellanic Cloud to the Alpha and Omega Octants, there would have been less of an impetus for these regions of space to establish contact with one another. No Andromedan War means no Operation Unity, no ongoing presence by the Unity powers in the LMC, and no opportunity for the GSX Sakharov to go from the LMC to and from Omega in the mid-to-late Y210s. (Unless some other "long-distance" invaders, such as the Xorkaelians, spark such efforts later in the timeline.)

Perhaps the likes of the Iridani might have considered launching more formalized Quests to more distant shores. But on the other hand, without the Andromedans to destroy the Iridani New Kingdom (which had been established along the Galactic Rim in Y187), more of their focus might have been diverted there - and thus farther away from new ventures elsewhere - than it had been in the historical timeline.

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Actually, in light of the range of Juggernaut Empire warships which have been added to the Shapeways storefront, I wonder if a potential "Juggernaut Threat File" module could say about what a large-scale invasion by that armada might have looked like. Or, perhaps, what it might yet look like in a distant corner of the Star Fleet Universe...

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 08:59 pm: Edit

I was at work so couldn’t check my copy of ISC War for the detail cordon info, thank you! With economic exhaustion coming up that relatively soon, I don’t think the ISC was planning any kind of heavier presence into the PEZs or CEZs - just more ships to shuffle between more active borders.

The problem with having a new sector-spanning hot war, a Second General War, is that in the first the two superpowers involved are bordering each other and in the middle of everyone else - allowing them and their allies to work together in practical ways (and for the most freedom in coming up with scenarios to play!), whereas the ISC is over on one of the fat ends of the map. The most likely hot war case I could imagine is the Federation and ISC squaring off, most of the fighting occurring in Gorn and Romulan space (as the Romulans immediately petition the ISC to give their aid in the face of what they see as inevitable Fed/Gorn aggression toward them).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 09:25 pm: Edit

Actually, one further option for a "no Andro" timeline could be to factor in one or more of the "lost empire" timelines from Module C6.

If the "Mapsheet P" Paravians led to the ISC joining the General War as part of the Alliance, there would have been no Pacification at all. Which, for one thing, would require someone else to consider dealing with the Seltorians before they become too much of a problem.

Also, either the "Carnivon Empire" or "Cluster Carnivon" options might lead to further troubles in the absence of ISC peacekeepers or Andromedan invaders. I was speculating over in the F&E Lost Empires discussion thread that the Klingons could consider supporting the "on-map" Carnivons, to use as leverage against both the Lyrans and the Kzintis.