Not exactly. First, if a miss you get another chance. Second, this is only for a Speed 64 plasma.

There are those who wish a Super-Sabot at speed 48. I don't see a real need for it (at this point) and to balance speed 48 with this chart would work. So I up'ed the speed and balanced it with the chart which has it's own dynamics. Consider, you might WANT it to miss on the first roll so you gain access to a damaged shield that is otherwise out of arc. Of course, you don't get to choose.

It a different way of handling plasma but you could avoid the chart and launch normal or sabotted plasma. Again, this only applies to a speed 64 plasma.

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Geoff said:

"seeking plasma would be secondary as a defensive first/offensive second weapon.

Problem; this would be a radical departure for the Gorns and Roms and the ISC already do this. "

What about Klingon v. Kzinti DF/Drone similarities?

Micheal said:

"Now I'm not sure if the plasma should be 1-4 all the way out to R10 and 1-3 out from R11-15 or if it should be 1-5 for R0-5 and 1-4 for R6-10 and 1-3 for R11-15, but I think that in and of it'self with give the Roms, Gorns and ISCs all the DF power they need."

Again, an improved 'bolt' for all races is boring. The wow factor is for each race to have different ways of countering the decreasing effectivness of seeking plasma.

I've said this over and over again: the 'Wow' factor has to be in an x2 product. Now some have challenged the discussion for 'Wow ideas'. There are some good ones to dicuss. A DF option is one of them.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 09:13 pm: Edit

1) We can't sacrifice Racial Flavour for Wow factor.
2) We've pretty much sacrificed Wow factor for making the ships weak-cheap ships to deal with the trade wars.


Quite frankly I think getting my X1 task group run down and splattered with 80 points of damage every second turn at range 15 form the X2 ship's pair of X2M-launchers has a lot of WOW factor.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Roger,

I like "wow" too. But many, many die-hard Rom players won't like having their 2X Roms not being big seeking plasma users. I think mix and match is the right approach, and the Roms are perfect for it because of their modular designs.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 01:30 pm: Edit

If we're nit going to give them X-maulers, they deserve something...

By Roger Dupuy (Rogerdupuy) on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 01:39 pm: Edit

Mike, no worries! I am a die hard Rom player (back in the early 80s i.e. "launch Type R on impulse 1 and so on). Mix and Match is what I have been proposing all along.

Quoting myself in the April 12th archive:
"I just wanted to propose a Direct fire weapon that did not resemple a PPD or Photon but filled a much needed gap in the Romluan arsenal."

Michael, I don't know, sometimes "Racial Flavor" is used to disguise other things. Many would not want to go through change as this is threatening. There are many secondary ripples that would result from a revolutionary change.

My bit is that Romulan admirals and tacticians cannot turn a blind eye to the emerging trends in Post-Operation Unity warfare. The Romulans need to revolutionize themselves. And hey, let's make it a "Romulan style" revolution. There's preceedent for this (help me out folks) wasn't the whole Modular Hawk change for the Romulans prior to the General War a Romulan Revolution?

Let's explore, guess, predict what would they do in this new era called X2. This forum asks us to do so.

One question we could honestly ask ourselves is "Hey, what would be a Romulan DF weapon that is really really Romulanish?" (and don't say the M-word)

People have answered. Let's take look at them.

By Tos Crawford (Tos) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 09:36 am: Edit

Since a plasma drops off in damage so rapidly with range is there any real harm in allowing a bolt to hit at 1-4 for all ranges similar to the disruptor?

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 10:14 am: Edit

Tos The Big problem would be the R10 Bolt of a 2X CA.

2xM+2xS 70 potential damage. Not enough to wreck even a GW CA. But it will be hurting. Averaging the damage at 66%.Gives roughly 50 pts. Every other turn for 6 TURNS. For 150 pts.

ALL of which is outside Overload range. And with fast arming it can be redone 2 turns later. Talk about the ultimate saber dance.

Using 4 GW Disr averaged over 2 turns thats only 18 points. Making that 54 pts a BIG difference.

2X Disr. Probably would average out higher but not that much higher. I haven't looked that closely at the Disr thread.

But I have spent a LOT of time on Plasma.

<EDIT>

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 10:19 am: Edit

Please Consider my Romulan Integrated Proposal. Most particularly the possible Plasma upgrades.

It was posted a couple of days ago.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 09:08 pm: Edit

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Since a plasma drops off in damage so rapidly with range is there any real harm in allowing a bolt to hit at 1-4 for all ranges similar to the disruptor?

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By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 09:37 pm: Edit

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The Fed cruiser at R8 can be expected to throw out four 24 points phoptons for 48 points of damage on average so the Gorn isn't doing much better, it's doing slightly worse...and the Feds have drone racks!

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The Glory Zone argument doesn't stand up, these are friggin' X ships, they have enough reserve warp power to a make an impromptu mid-turn speed change and move through those 2 hexes and plaster oppoents with overloads.

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2X2Ms will only be bolting about 26.6' points of damage with that 1-4 out to R10, and that's pretty low compaired to the 20 of just four integrated UIM Overloaded Disruptors...every turn!

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By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 11:11 pm: Edit

I'll say it one more time. Look at my proposal for Roms. I expalin my reasoning on just about everything.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 11:47 pm: Edit

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And what about GW ships? They'll be toast. You have to make this play fair with them. Speed 48 super plasmas with an extra five hexes of bolt range/glory zone range will absolutely crucify GW or X1 ships.

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So what? The bolt is a secondary firing mode for the plasma torpedo. It should never be the equal of the disruptor; certainly not the 2X disruptor. It has plenty going for it as a seeking weapon, and there are various proposals to improve it for 2X...uber bolting doesn't have to be one.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 01:37 am: Edit

...which is as it should be. Bolting should always be a secondary mode for plasmas or you might as well convert over to Mike's Plasma cannon.


er...not that there's anything wrong with your cannon, Mike.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 08:29 am: Edit

No worries. I know exactly what you mean, and I agree. Trying to make bolting the equal of other DF weapons is silly. It's a nice secondary weapon to have, and can be usefull, but it should never be as good as other DF only weapons. I offered the cannon as a different kind of weapon for the Roms to use on modules.

MJC, your example of the BCG, NCA and CAR+ is so silly as to barely be worth comment. If you truly think that a Gorn XCA should be worth 472 BPV (180 for the BCG, 147 for the NCA, and 145 for the CAR+) you are working on a totally different premise than the rest of us. Further, any Gorn player who tries to trade bolts against a Fed squadron is asking to get his ass kicked. Stop trying to use such outrageous and one sided examples to justify your position. If you take 350 BPV worth of Fed ships up against a 350 BPV Gorn XCA, and the Gorn plays correctly, he'll do just fine.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 08:45 am: Edit

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MJC, your example of the BCG, NCA and CAR+ is so silly as to barely be worth comment. If you truly think that a Gorn XCA should be worth 472 BPV (180 for the BCG, 147 for the NCA, and 145 for the CAR+) you are working on a totally different premise than the rest of us.

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By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 08:53 am: Edit

Nope...it's 472. The unreffitted BCG is 180. The NCA is 147. The CAR+ is 145. Add it all up and it's 472. This is without any other options purchased by BPV.

410 against a Y215 Gorn is a better match up, certainly. No one has yet designed a Gorn XBC with all those refits, so I don't know what it will look like. But, I do still strongly believe that any Gorn player who chooses to trade DF bolt shots against photons is a fool, and is playing the enemies game in a big way. I think before we can discuss improvements to bolting, we have to have worked out what exactly we're doing to the normal seekiing plasmas. Once that's done, we can see if bolting merits any improvements.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Bolting is and always should be an alternative mode for weapon not designed to opperate that way. It shouldn't be as efficient. The Plasma Cannon IS designed to opperate that way so IS more efficient.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 08:57 pm: Edit

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If you truly think that a Gorn XCA should be worth 472 BPV (180 for the BCG, 147 for the NCA, and 145 for the CAR+) you are working on a totally different premise than the rest of us.

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I think with all the refits it should be worth about 410 BPV.

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Nope...it's 472. The unreffitted BCG is 180. The NCA is 147. The CAR+ is 145. Add it all up and it's 472. This is without any other options purchased by BPV.

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I think before we can discuss improvements to bolting, we have to have worked out what exactly we're doing to the normal seekiing plasmas. Once that's done, we can see if bolting merits any improvements.

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By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 08:52 am: Edit

That 472 isn't allowing for Drone speed upgrades. The basic BPV assumes that drones are at slow speed. You factor in speed 32 and it goes up even more. +28 BPV (or so) IIRC. (Not looking at books just now.)

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 10:24 am: Edit

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You know I was talking about the BPV of the XCA and not the task group....don't play games of misunderstanding to win arguments...it's a bad debating technique & it'ld be silly to build the game around the fact that you're willing to use any trick to get everything your way.

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 01:27 pm: Edit

Ken,

X1 ship BPVs assume Type VII drones in the racks, not Type IF.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 08:21 pm: Edit

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Don't be snide. You know very well that my point was that your described engagement between one Gorn XCA at 410 BPV and a Fed group worth 472 BPV is unbalanced, particularly as a way to validate the effectiveness of plasma bolts. That to me is much more "using every trick to get your way" than my suggestion that a "fair" fight would require a Gorn XCA to have a ridiculously high BPV. If you want to show that bolting is a disadvantage, give a fair comparison (though frankly, it shouldn't be the equal of DF only weapons in any case.)

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That 472 isn't allowing for Drone speed upgrades. The basic BPV assumes that drones are at slow speed. You factor in speed 32 and it goes up even more. +28 BPV (or so) IIRC. (Not looking at books just now.)

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By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 11:08 pm: Edit

Hitting two thirds of the time with an X1 Gorn Cruisers warheads ( or even five sixths if the -1 shift rule is applied ) then you still fall short of other two turn arming heavy weapons ) will not inflict nearly as much damage as the GW taskgrop that is sent out to destroy you.

Of course you od. You're supposed to.

You want bolts as a primary DF attack mode, use Mike's Plasma cannon.

Plasma torpedoes are seeking weapons first and foremost.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 12:21 pm: Edit

I like the Plasma cannon as a weapon designed to bolt. It works better because it is designed to do that. It gives the Plasma boys a DF weapon too. Something undenyably important to the high speed era (with wild drouges you can run at speed 12 wile still protected).

I would like to remind people of another proposal of mine that provides a powerful DF ability for the Plasma races too. The Plasma Gatling. Armed as a shotgun the resulting plasma F's can be bolted once per impulse. I don't recall further specifics though I have the written but right now I'm thinking that once the first bolt is fired the rest must be fired with in 8 impulses. Unbolted plasmas are lost after 8 impulses. Can be fired at the same or different targets.

The damage output is the same as the full bolt but the ability to engage multiple targets or the mizia effect against a single target is powerful. The energy cost is enough to pay for the tactical advantage. This is an ability that all ships of a given race should be capable of once the technique is developed (GW, X1, X2).