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	Archive through March 19, 2021	25		03/20 11:36am

Alan Trevor:

The comment referenced the face that the Tholians built size-1 fighters with 14 damage points and a disruptor fighter in goodly numbers (Klingon and Kzinti only supplied them in small numbers and with only 10 damage points) and relatively fast (Speed 14 while the Federation, Klingons, and Kzintis only got to Speed 10_ The Tholians were exceptional with small units.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, March 19, 2021 - 08:54 pm: Edit

Sometimes equipment remains in service for many decades before being retired.

Real world B-52 bombers are an example.

It appears that Star Fleet Battles B-52 bombers also fly on deployed to PDUs in Federation service for many decades after their initial year in service.

While A-20’s may be found on other carriers during and after the General War, the rules still allow players to pick A-10’s for use on a CVA.

In the real world, the U.S. Navy “retired” the SBD dive bomber in favor of the Curtis Helldiver. The U.S.S. Enterprise was still using SBD dive bombers late in the war, right up to the point she was reconfigured as a night fighter carrier(used fighters and radar equipped TBF torpedo bombers.)

Heck, ADB published a old light cruiser X ship conversion a few cap log issues back. Old ships fighters and bombers continue in service for years past their prime.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Friday, March 19, 2021 - 10:14 pm: Edit

Oh, like THESE B-52s?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, March 19, 2021 - 10:52 pm: Edit

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, March 20, 2021 - 11:36 am: Edit

Alan Trevor:

The comment referenced the face that the Tholians built size-1 fighters with 14 damage points and a disruptor fighter in goodly numbers (Klingon and Kzinti only supplied them in small numbers and with only 10 damage points) and relatively fast (Speed 14 while the Federation, Klingons, and Kzintis only got to Speed 10_ The Tholians were exceptional with small units.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, March 20, 2021 - 02:31 pm: Edit

The Hivers were pretty good with small units too.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Saturday, March 20, 2021 - 03:15 pm: Edit

Could come to the conclusion that Tholians would be affected differently by G-Forces (just my thought),
so would be able to do things differently to their smaller units.....

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Saturday, March 20, 2021 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Kzinti and Klingon Disruptor armed Assault Fighters (and the Federation A-10) can, and in my opinion SHOULD) launch a drone on their way in to deliver their Disruptor (or Photon Torpedo) shot, even if it's a Type-VI*; the drone ought to draw some defensive fire away from the fighters.

Tholian Spider-IIs can't do this; they have no choice but to face defensive fire undiluted. Maybe it's just me, but their high speed and tough design, while respectable, are often not a completely adequate compensation for this fact.**

(*While Type-VI drones can't do much against ships, there's both the psychological effect of players facing drone strikes often go overboard with the need to stop them and the possibility that a lazy player might assume that ANY drone fired at them HAS to be a standard Type-I drone)

(**It is this difference/diversity that make playing asymmetrical opponents fun. Also, similar things can be said about Hydran and Vudar fighters.)

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, March 20, 2021 - 09:40 pm: Edit

The problem is that SOONER or later that last Fed CVA is going to need a "heavy refit." And at that point it would become a SCS or such.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Sunday, March 21, 2021 - 10:55 am: Edit

Jeff:

If that isn't already a Term Paper submission, it probably should....

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, March 21, 2021 - 04:12 pm: Edit

If a Fed CVA stays in service into the ISC Pacification and Andromedan Invasion eras, whether as a CVA or an SCS, I think it pretty much has to swap its A-10s for A-20Fs at some point. The "operating speed" of enemy fleets, at least the most dangerous ones, will be higher than during the early portion of the General War; with X-ships, PFs, Andros. Even "convetional fleets" will field a high percentage of BCHs, CWs, and DWs possessing better power curves than older CAs. And A-10s, for all their impressive damage absorbtion capabilities, will simply have too hard a time getting into firing position. They may be useful in base assault or planetary assault missions. But you have to be able to beat the enemy's fleet before you can assault his bases or planets. And the low speed of the A-10s will put them at too great a disadvantage compared to A-20Fs, in my opinion.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, March 21, 2021 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Alan,

The sad fact is that Star Fleet Battles scenarios suffers casualties.

True whether we’re talking of frigates, fighters bombers or PFs.

Fighters (including A-10s, or A-10Ms) benefit from the small target modifier rule. That creates something of a “glory” zone where the A-10s are slightly harder to hit, and still able to use photon torpedos (albeit at a terrible chance of hitting anything due to the inaccurate photons). But they also can use their 2 phaser 3’s at up to 15 hexes range, and (in the era were discussing, very likely armed with 2x type IF drones (speed 32 hexes per turn.)

Sure, the 6 x A-20s would have 6 phaser 2s, 6 phaser 3s, and up to (6x4=24) special drone rails worth drones and (6x6=36) worth of ADD6 round of anti drones, dogfight drones, in addition to the Photons.

Are the A-20s worth more in BPVs. Yes.

But the meta game aspects still apply.

An enemy still has to make twice as many successful hits to inflict damage enough to kill a Pair of A-10, or A-10M. To kill all 12 A-10 assault shuttles requires (12*16= 192 points of damage. (Assumes all 12 are standard A-10 fighters.)

To kill 6 A-20 assault shuttles needs (6*18=108) points of damage.

There is a good reason for the continued us of the A-10 assault Shuttle.

It’s clearly more survivable than the A-20. Than that translates to better able to complete the mission.

And it’s the same in the real world, and why the A-10 remains in service.

Frankly, What I would like to see is a weapons upgrade for the A-10equal to what the A-20 gets. A three round ADD launcher for each A-10. The existing standard rails upgraded to special drone rails (either by the addition of 2 more functional standard rails to allow the A-10 to launch type IV drones, or failing that upgrading the existing rails for type IV drones use.)

I am not convinced that the A-10 needs or even could use a phaser 2 effectively, but the A-20 has 1.5 points of power to support its phasers. Instead of upgrading a phaser 3 to phaser 2, I would like a year 195+ phaser upgrade to add a second FA phaser 3 to each A-10.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, March 21, 2021 - 08:50 pm: Edit

Jeff,

Actually,the A-10 can carry two standard Type-I drones. It isn't limited to dogfight drones. That still puts it behind the A-20F, both because of the latter's ADD and because the A-20F's drone rails are "special" rails, meaning they can carry type-IIIs or can be paired to carry half as many Type-IVs. So firepower-wise, the A-10 is a bit better than you think.

But I still don't buy your argument. The Feds have much better options for using drones. If the A-10 can't get into position to use its photons, it's not going to be very effective; certainly not worth the cost of the unit. And with that speed, it will have a much harder time getting into firing position.

By the way, you mentioned the "small target modifier". If the opponent has X-ships, they ignore the small target modifier per XE1.7. Granted, fighters of any sort will have problems against X-ships. But if, as the Feds, I had to take a CVA group against enemy X-ships I would absolutely prefer the A-20F. X-ships have the power to move at high speed while still generating significant firepower. But the A-20Fs have at least a fighting chance of getting some shots off, especially if they are megafighters.

Note also that the A-20F has an EW advantage over the A-10. Standard fighters have two ECM and two ECCM inherently. But heavy fighters have two ECM, two ECCM, and two "swing points" due to a "built-in" EW pod.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, March 21, 2021 - 10:22 pm: Edit

The A10 is what it is and won't change. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, March 21, 2021 - 10:34 pm: Edit

Deleted by author.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, March 21, 2021 - 11:12 pm: Edit

Jeff, your last full post perfectly explained what the meta-game problem with the A-10 is. What you are asking for and why you are asking for it is the exact reason it won't happen.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, March 22, 2021 - 06:02 am: Edit

Yes, I realized that.

I may be slow, but I get there in the end.