Archive through April 09, 2021
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: STELLAR SHADOWS:
Stellar Shadows proposals :
Feds Without Seeking Weapons:
Archive through April 09, 2021
Note that historically the Gorns did not adopt the ADD, not even on the A-20/G-30 (to make an example) or their warships. It is one thing to increase production of an existing technology, and another thing to adopt a technology and produce it in limited numbers and track is supply to handful of "carriers." So unless the CDS racks are such wildly successful defenses against plasma torpedoes that the Gorns began installing them, I do not see them as something the Gorns will deploy on fighters in place of the plasma-Ds/-Ks they will see the Romulan fighters using, and the Romulan fighters can control their own seeking weapons.
Steve Petrick:
When one makes changes, sometimes those changes influence other things.
When Mike West knocks over the domino labeled “No Drone Feds” it follows a different path than the one historically that occurred.
One possibility is that the same pattern of the Gorns buying Fed Fighter tech, using CDS instead of Drones.
I do not dispute that what you posted at 06:10 pm is true.
Just that there are other lines of dominos that could fall, depending on just how the “No Drone Feds” falls.
Just because the Gorns historically took the cheap path does not necessarily mean that in an alternate reality, they made a different decision.
One could argue, that once the decision to field mobile plasma launchers (AKA assault fighter shuttles) is made, the Gorns could invent a “Gorn AS type assault shuttle.”
In fact, it could just be as simple as a modified admin shuttle, that has 1 phaser 3, and as time moves forward, the Gorns figure out a way to hang increasing numbers of stasis plasma F boxes on the frame.
No other advances, just a staff of mechanics modifying an existing design. Oh, and a maximum launch rate of no more than one plasma F torpedo per turn.
Give the G-1 a YIS date of 167. One plasma charge.
G2 a YIS 171 , 2 plasma charges.
G-3 , YIS 173, 3 charges.
G-4, YIS 175, 4 charges
G-5, YIS 178, 5 charges
G-6, YIS 181, 6 charges.
The base fighter never improves, only the number of charges of plasma F does.
The Gorns will save a huge amount of BPVs over time to the joy of the Gorn government.
The Gorns could still buy superiority fighters from the Federation. And still have a separate line of Gorn assault shuttles.
I seriously want to keep each AltTimeline to a single causal even, so (Gary, I am looking at you) don't go stacking multiple causal events into one product.
I also agree that there are plenty of ways to sort out Gorn fighters AFTER you get something workable for the Feds.
No Fed seeking weapons means no Fed seeking weapons, other than suicide shuttles which are universal.
Jeff Wile:
And why did the Romulans and ISC not adopt that. You are just making things worse. So when do the Klingons develop the fighter with five overloaded disruptor bolts (only one a turn of course) or the Hydrans the Stinger-H(ellfire) with Six hellbore charges?
Petrick:
First, I misunderstood your comment about the A-6/G-6. I was only talking about the rails, not the fire control. Regardless, as I have stated multiple times already, I have completely dropped using my initial suggestion (using Pl-D and Pl-F) they are gone.
In addition, point is taken: bolting plasma is out. Gotcha. It is what it is.
Again, just to be clear: There will be no Gorn fighters using seeking Pl-D, Pl-K, or Pl-F. There will be no Gorn fighters using bolts or carronade. There will be no importing Kzinti fighters. These have all been ruled out and I have already dropped these as options. Bolding just to make sure the point is not missed.
So, I am going to stick with my last suggestion: They used unmodified F-1/2/3/4/6/21 fighters, all using Skolean pilots. That still seems workable, despite your objection about using the CDS.
The CDS still works because the ADD situation is different. There are two big reason for not using the ADDs on the G-30/40:
- They had better/preferred weapons: Pl-F and Pl-D. They had no need for a fighter-only weapon that is not natively theirs.
- There is no reason to use the ADDs, as they don't affect plasma, which is used by *all* of their primary enemies. (Plus, they got an extra phaser in the G-30 by dumping it.)
In the case of the CDS, neither are true. They literally cannot use their preferred weapons (as you have exhaustively explained) and they have no other options available. And, unlike ADDs, they DO affect plasma (at least when launched from a fighter CDS rack), which means these are actually useful in that context.
Is this an ideal weapon for them? Obviously, no. But if the option is to build their own from scratch or use Federation designs being sold inexpensively, the cheap Gorn government picks the latter. Plus, the CDS ammo supply shouldn't really be a problem. Since they are just using unmodified Federation designs, they can use the saved money to buy and set up a CDS ammo factory and pump out their own, or they can just buy loads from the Federation. I am sure the Feds can ramp up production as needed. This basically the only munition the Feds make in this alternative history, so they should be able to be swimming in CDS ammo.
And, again, the Gorns will ONLY use CDS in the fighters themselves. They do not use CDS racks on their ships, carriers, or escorts. Escorts continue to use Pl-D racks. (This is similar to the model of the Lyrans and Seltorians. Those empires used Klingon fighters with drones, but did not install drones on their own ships, including carriers or escorts.) This means they don't have to supply anything for use in ships; there is no ship-based CDS rack. All fighter-based CDS racks come delivered already in their fighters. All they need (other than what every other fighter would need, regardless of type) is the CDS ammo, which is only used by fighters.
As a result, the Gorns would only need CDS ammo supply necessary for the fighters, and they would be supplied through the exact same channel that supplies the new fighters and new fighter supplies. There is no change to the distribution network; just the contents of that network. In effect, the CDS ammo is just another part of the required fighter supplies. This is not adding appreciably to the logistics.
Heading back to the Feds themselves, I still have questions on them.
Is the CDS an acceptable secondary weapon? Is their ability to damage plasma out of line? (I obviously don't think so, and the lack of objects to that seem to indicate I am not wrong.) The CDS is the major piece of new technology in this alternative, and it is extensively used. I want to make sure it is acceptable and works.
Are the Federation fighters acceptable? Despite flirting with 100% photon fighters, I think the 50/50 split is better, as the photon fighters will have problems with other fighters. Having a 50/50 split lets the CDS fighters keep the other fighters and drones away, so the photon fighters can try to attack the ships. Plus it gives them useful fighters they don't have to spend power to reload.
Assuming the CDS is fine, I figure the CDS fighters should be OK, as I stole them directly from the Carnivon Jackals. These are different, but the whole CDS rack on a single-space fighter is taken directly from the ADD racks on the Jackals. I say only one CDS shot per rack per turn can damage plasma, but we might want to make that two. I don't know, but I think it should be limited.
The photon fighters should be OK, as this is literally what SVC suggested. I hope it is. I chose the smaller photon because having a single huge torpedo really limits the fighter. Giving it two shots of half-strength photons takes away from its alpha-strike, but gives it back flexibility and more opportunities for reloads. The arming of those photons is open. It could be 1+1 or my preferred 2. Either way, these photons are only available with freezers and on fighters. They can't even be used in gunboats.
And, I want to ask the most important question again: Is this Federation interesting? It is still the same people and basically the same ships. However, the way they fight changes in a significant way, especially with fighters. Does this sound fun?
SVC;
I may have missed this, but is there any reason that the Kzinti would not have sold the Gorns the plans for Kzinti fighters at some point for a one time payment? i.e. Not sell Gorns fighters, just how to build them. I'm sure that at some point the Kzinti, the start of the General War at the latest, would have had a real use for a pile of money.
That is not an implausible concept which solves the problem. Can you guys get back to the project now?
Maybe the Gorns just steal some Romulan fighter plans and use those.
***
Note that it _is_ possible to build 'fighters' that can power and overload heavy weapons (and erect shields), as long as you are the Hivers.
But they are special.
No drone Feds essentially already existed in the Early Years front the "Y" series generally through the "Middle Years," the drones available were at best moderate special in the time period, and there were no Fed fighters. Aside from redesigning General War and later(Advanced Technology) ships so that they also lack drones what is the purpose? In Y125 through Y150 you already have basically the same technology.
Steve, yes, that kinda baked into this: The history (except for the odd ship like the MS and GSC) will be unchanged until Y140 (when the CDS is invented) and then in about Y160 when the Federation fleet refits started appearing and fighters are adopted by the Federation. Before the Federation fleet refits, yes, the ships are identical (except for the very few oddballs like the MS and GSC).
The whole point is to redesign the GW era ships and fighters to not use drones. And let the changes flow from that. Even then, the point is not to change the actual *history*, just make the Feds fight and feel differently with their revamped fleet. In a way, it is to keep the dynamics of that Y125-150 fleet, but still give them a minor extra (the CDS) to handle the increasing number of improving drones their opponents are using.
In a way, this is the opposite of the Romulans in R4J. In R4J, the point was to change the origins of the Romulans to give them warp earlier, then basically merge it back into the main timeline (primarily through the Treaty of Smarba). In this, the Feds start the same, but change from their decision in Y140-160 to not adopt drones.
As for X-ships, I dunno. Honestly, these changes should be possible to pull forward by simply making a 12 space CDS rack with triple reloads. That should be pretty effective and keep things moving forward.
There is one exception to the "no changes before Y140". One of the alternative histories would involve the Andorian national ships NOT using drones, but using something else (something besides photons because they are still obstinant) that is direct-fire. That gives a different reason for the lack of drones, but really changes absolutely nothing else other than different Andorian ships. But that is intended to be one of the additional alternative histories, not the primary one.
Andorian drones;
Look at all the various weapons the ISC member races dropped on unification, Andorian drones can go down the same path. In my opinion, leave them in.
ADM,
I want to provide multiple alternative histories that will make use of the same set of ships. The idea of the Andorians not using drones would be one of the other sets.
The alternative histories I am looking at are the follows (in very short overviews):
ALT1: During the trials where the Feds are experimenting with drones, things go bad. They abandon drones and adopt the CDS instead. This is the default, "minimum impact" version.
ALT2: The Andorians don't use drones. So, there are no drone trials and the Feds just move onto the CDS and the same ships as above.
ALT3: Mix this with ALT5 in R4J. These Feds are nastier and earlier actions preclude the use of drones. (There is a good entry point in that history.) May not be possible to use this one because of Steve's comment about not mixing histories.
ALT4: Weirdo mash-up: The disaster of ALT1 still happens, but the demonstrated abilities of Klingon and Kzinti fighters forces the Federation to adopt drone-armed fighters. However, all drones are purely limited to fighters, and are only carried by carriers and escorts. All ships are still non-drone.
ALT5: SPP's holovid suggestion. As ALT1, but the whole sector goes weird and there are no attrition units. No empire develops fighters or gunboats, and it's all ship-on-ship action!
So, with the above in mind, that's why I included that Andorian note. While the primary alternative history really doesn't change anything (except the oddball ship) prior to Y140-Y160, ALT2 does. I just want to make sure I don't appear to pull a bait-n-switch later.
Actually, writing the above down made me think of something ...
These Feds had a disaster during their drone trials that dissuaded them from using drones in their ships. However, enough of them had to know how useful they still could be, especially when drones finally made it to medium speed. However, by that point the intrinsic resistance to drones would prevent them from being widely used.
However, ... let's say that some wanted to at least try to adopt drones for fighters. When making the F-1, they also made a drone using competitor called the F-8. This competition is the difference between ALT1 and ALT4. In ALT1 the F-1 won the competition and fighter development as we know it continued. In ALT4, the F-8 won the competition and drone fighter development continued. Note that, in ALT4, the prejudice against drones doesn't go away. Drones are seen as a "fighter-only" risk, and carriers and escorts just get to deal with it (but still don't use drones in ship-mounted weapons).
This also solves the Gorn fighter issue. Even in ALT1, there is now a Fed drone fighter that they can sell to the Gorns. In ALT4, they get excess capacity. In ALT1, they are a lifeline to the losing bidder. Either way, they get to buy a steady stream of Federation fighters for their own use.
Potential problems. All scenarios will need to be reviewed for balance. All Fed ships will need BPV reviewed. The defensive potential will be different, as the opponents will now be able to save phaser power for use on the ships rather than incoming drones. The power balance on the Feds will change with out ECM drones. The offensive potential of Fed ships will be less, again resulting in BPV adjustments. Lastly the boat left a long time ago, how long has the Fed had drones in the game 40 years.
Obviously ship BPVs will change. Obviously, some force balances may change. Yes, the Feds get some new disadvantages. But, then, they also get some new advantages. That's fine and part of the overall project.
Yes, the tactical dynamic changes. At the risk of being super-repetitive, that's the whole point!
Seriously, if we took drones away, but then the resulting ships flew exactly the same and there was no effect on how the Federation played, what is the point of the exercise? This is supposed to make things different, provide new tactical challenges, and make something old feel fresh again.
And, yes, the Federation has had drones for 40 years of real time. Even more reason to change things up! Take away their non-iconic toys, double-down on their iconic toys, give them a new side toy, and see how well they do from there.
You are pointing to the features of the effort and trying to make them sound like bugs. They are not bugs; they are features!
I think this has been brought up earlier in the conversation, but I still want to put in my 0.02 Quatloos worth.
Since the Federation does use ADDs in this timeline, I do like the idea of them having use of fighters similar to the ones used by the Carnivons in C6.
Standard (top of the line?) Superiority Fighter:
Speed: 15
Phasers: 2xPh-3-FA
Drones: 1xADD-6
Damage: 14
DFR: 4 (with a star after it)
BPV: 11?
Standard (top of the line?) Assault Fighter:
Speed: 15
Phasers: 2xPh-3-FA
Drones: 2xADD-FA
Damage: 14
DFR: 3 (with a star after it)
Other Weapons: 1xPhoton Torpedo-FA, two charges
These are the Jackal-4 and Hyena-3, respectively, with only the heavy weapon type on the Hyena-3, the Disruptor Cannon, being replaced with the standard Federation Photon Torpedo.
Question is whether the Federation would follow the Carnivon pattern of a two-to-one ratio of Superiority Fighters to Assault Fighters, or whether they'd go with the same sort of one-to-one ratio of Superiority Fighters to Assault Fighters that the Tholians use.
My reason for wondering is that, with everything else being kept the way it was in Canon SFU history, I'm expecting that the Federation would still be loathe to utilize Gunboats, but would still have a need for some sort of attrition unit deployment in the post-Y180 universe that would keep them from being overstressed by unfriendly neighbors.
Again, this is just my 0.02 Quatloos worth. Please take it for what it is. 
JGA:
The first distinction that needs to be made, is Mike’s proposed CSD weapons are effective vs plasma Torpedos. ADD’s are not.
For that reason alone, the Federation should not adopt a Carnivons superiority fighter that relies on ADD tech.
While I used the Jackal as inspiration, I intentionally did NOT follow their actual designs. Instead, I modeled the designs on Federation fighters, as that fits better (in my mind, anyway). Plus, I have already outlined what I think the Federation fighters should look like. (Be sure to look for the last ones I posted, as I changed my mind a couple times.) While some of the weapons loadouts could change, the fighters themselves likely won't, as these fighters are still Federation fighters, not anyone else's.
Also, as Jeff says, the CDS racks (new name so it doesn't use "ADD" and confuse everyone even more) I give these Feds is able to damage plasma. Why? Because if the Feds are going to have a weapon, it needs to be useful against the Romulans and Gorns, in addition to the Klingons and Kzinti. If the weapon only works against the Klingons and Kzinti, they are going to develop something else. This lets it be useful everywhere.
It also serves another role against plasma. If the Federation has drones, those are used to soak up some of the Romulan phaser firepower. Without drones, the Romulans effectively get an increase in their effective phaser firepower against the Federation. By making the CDS have an effect against plasma, this means that more Federation phaser firepower is preserved. So, instead of finding something that will use up Romulan phaser firepwer, I have instead switch it so that *both* sides free up phaser firepower. This gives more of a balancing effect, but balances things out in a different method.
Also, while a ship mounted CDS rack can fire every single shot as "energized", thus allowing it to affect plasma (assuming it has the full two points of power allocated or to spare), a fighter cannot. A fighter can only fire one of its rack shots (may be changed to two) "energized". This limits how much plasma it can effect. Also, only rack shots can be "energized". Anything mount on a rail cannot be "energized", and there are rail mounted shots on some of the fighters.
And they aren't using full photons. They are using "fighter photons" which are basically half-strength photons. This lets them use it on a single-space fighter, and gives the fighter more flexibility and staying power.
Again, all of this is a repetition of what has already been posted.
If memory serves, I thought the Andorrans used drones in the early years modules.
And, just to remind everyone of the actual “Real Star Fleet History” tm there were at least two competing drone using fighter development groups. One was the “Martian” group of Star Fleet (aka “the Insiders”) and the second group, the Cygnians.
Mikes alternative fighter designs might (this is supposition, not a formal proposal) still use the dynamic of two design centers focusing on two competing (potentially in conflict) technologies.
Let’s say, that the Star Fleet Martian fighter development team adopted the CSD weapons whole heartedly. Energy charge requirements and all.
That leaves the Cygnians free to pursue a droneless alternative weapon system that lost the competition for huge fighter production contracts.
Might the Cygnians have pursued the photon torpedo option?
The A-10 seems to have a photon launcher/tube thingy that can use a staisis charged photon reload.
Is it impossible that the Cygnians tried to develop a light photon option , perhaps more compact, lighter, easier to mount on a one space fighter frame than what the A-10 ended up being?
Not saying the Cygnians won, just that they were an effective competitor, and that they , at least initially, met with some success before the CSD system was fully accepted by Star Fleet some time after the start of the General War.
Just an idea.
The ship designs are not in competition as they fill two different roles. The photon armed assault fighters are anti-ship fighters. The CDS fighters are anti-fighter fighters. The are intended to work in concert, which is why they are paired.
That said, I do want a competition between CDS armed fighters and drone armed fighters. That competition breaks for the CDS (and photon) fighters in the ALT1 history, and the drone fighters win in the ALT4 history. Not sure that will pass the SPP test or not, but I think it'd be fun.
But, regardless, there were most likely several competitions on what the Fed fighter should be, and it likely happened multiple times. Even if this is ever actually published (and its odds probably aren't that good), I doubt there will be room for that much esoterica.
Another thought: maybe the Cygnans still insist on making their F-104s and, because of their former Kzinti overlords, they used drones. These Feds still refuse to use them, but still let the Cygnans use them. Then, one world in the Federation is still using drones despite the overall rejection of them. Don't know if that works, but it's still more stuff that could be happening in the background.
Posted Mike West's pinned post that he sent for posting.
FEAST
Quick note:
A post was pinned at the top that contains the main proposal in one spot, so that you don't have to dig back to find the pieces. The one change from before is that I redid the names of the fighters to get rid of the "F-4" designation. The fighter is still there, I just redid the numbers to get rid of that one.
Also, it doesn't include anything about the Gorn fighters. SVC said to deal with that later, so I am. The post just deals with the Federation.
Talking about the BC class, it would seem that the design would have needed a strong main armament to really be considered instead of possibly more CBs. I had thought I had read somewhere that light photons were considered for the BCs. Might have been when they were discussed in earlier Stellar Shadows.
Light (and heavy) photons were introduced and discussed in Module P6. I am avoiding them here because I don't want light and heavy photons here. I want a "half photon" for the fighters (for reasons I have already stated), but do not want them on the ships.
Besides, the main BC variant was just four photons plus four drone racks. Really, I'm not doing anything special with it. I'm just shifting the main variant from the four drones to the extra phasers. Which isn't a bad ship, quite honestly. It's pretty good.