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	Archive through August 26, 2021	25		08/27 03:03pm

SPP,

I think we will have to "agree to disagree" on what the term "one trick pony" actually means. In any case, the issue isn't whether a particular weapon type is a one trick pony, but whether a platform (ship or PF) that carries that weapon type as part of its total weapon suite is a one trick pony.


Ohh... and even if it is, what if it's a really good trick?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, August 27, 2021 - 01:15 pm: Edit

It appears, Uxbridge, that we are losing this battle.

And it appears I am losing the battle of convincing people (except perhaps Mike West) that the Feds would field such PFs (if they fielded PFs at all). But I do want to make one more post to discuss use of Thunderflames against Klingons.

First, clarification of a couple of points:

First, my suggested organization is described in my 5:01 PM post from 23 August. Two of the Thunderbolts in a standard flotilla are replaced by "Thunderflames" which have two Type-F plasma and a single Type-G drone rack instead of one photon torpedo and two drone racks (one of which is Type-A). Note that compared to a standard Thunderbolt flotilla, this flotilla would lose two photon torpedoes and two Type-A drone racks in exchange for the four Type-F plasma. It still retains three photon torpedoes and nine drone racks, and all the phasers.

Second, I do not claim this flotilla is as good against the Klingons as a standard Thunderbolt flotilla. I claim it is better against the Romulans, and still good enough to be viable against the Klingons if some emergency should force it to be deployed to that front.

So how might it fight the Klingons? that depends, of course, on the bigger picture. Are we talking about two flotillas in a "meeting engagement" in deep space or are we talking about flotillas as part of large forces? And if the latter, just what are those other forces? I'm going to look at the specific Thunderbolt/Thunderflame mixed flotilla versus a G1 flotilla. That won't cover all possibilities but I think it will suffice to show the mixed flotilla is viable against the Klingons.

First, note that the Klingons have to close the range to be viable. This is partly a consequence of phaser-1s versus phaser-2s and partly a consequence of PF photons having a range of 12 hexes, versus 10 for the disruptors.

At 13 hexes or greater, we are basically looking at phasers versus phasers, and over time the Federation will win that fight due to superior phaser suites on their PFs (though the Gorns, Tholians, ISC and Seltorians are not particularly impressed). The drones can range well beyond 15 hexes, of course. But in this situation each side can neutralize the other's drones without reducing long range phaser firepower.

At 12 hexes the Federation advantage increases because the photon torpedoes are in range. They will have less firepower than they would with a standard Thundrebolt flotilla but they will still decisively outgun a G1 flotilla, which has to close to range-10 for the disruptors to come into play.

So... the Federation approaches off-center and fires the LS phaser-1s from beyond 12 hexes. They then turn to port and make an oblique approach, attempting to reach 12 hexes with the Klingons directly off their No. 2 shields. they fire photons and the RS phaser-1s and turn away to re-arm the photons while preventing the Klingons from reaching range-10. This damage may end up being on a different shield than the LS phaser-1s fired earlier. But in a situation like this, cumulative damage over time is more important that a single alphas-strike.

And they also launch their plasma-torpedoes. This presents the Klingons with a dilemma. They can turn away and will easily out run the short ranged Type-Fs. But that allows the Feds to repeat the same attack after their torpedoes are re-armed. Or they can try to bull their way through the Type-Fs, using their phaser-2s to reduce damage. The flotilla has 12 phaser-2s, assuming they also employ the two on the PF scout. At one hex range that will do an average of 50 points of phaser damage, enough to eliminate 25 points of plasma warhead strength. But because the G1s are rushing into the oncoming plasma in order to try to close with the Fed PFs, those four plasma torpedoes will each have 15 point warheads at impact, even if launched from 12 hexes away. After phaser damage, that still leaves 35 points of aggregate damage for the PFs to absorb. Note that the Feds could also try to delay the Klingons by launching drones. But drones are much easier to counter with the Klingons' own weapons (and scout channels on the G1S if the Klingons wish to use them for that purpose).

And the Klingon PFs aren't actually gaining ground on the Feds, they are merely holding position. As the Feds run and re-arm their torpedoes, the two forces exchange phaser fire, but that's still Fed phaser-1s versus Klingon phaser-2s and the Klingons are firing at rear shields while the Feds are firing at front shields. When the Fed torpedoes are re-armed, they HET back into the Klingons for another exchange. And in that second head-on pass, the Feds are firing at shields that have been degraded by the Feds' phasers during the "run-and-re-arm" segment while most of the Fed forward shields are still good since the Klingon phasers, besides doing less damage overall, were damaging the rear shields.

This post is running longer than I had anticipated so I will end for now. I acknowledge that it is oversimplified and I haven't explored Klingon tactics with which they might try to counter this. I also acknowledge it covers one specific situation (a deep space engagement between two PF flotillas, with other forces not present) and a fleet battle would present different issues. but I believe this has been sufficient to show that the mixed Thunderbolt / Thunderflame flotilla, while not optimized to fight the Klingons, can still be very effective against them.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 27, 2021 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor:

Well, as yiou pulled away, the Klingons continued to approach and ripped apart the convoy you were covering.

Basically you are positing that the Klingons would only meet the Federation in open space in circumstances favorable to your flotilla. Even your basic original proposal assumes that the gunboats will be enough superior that the target has to cloak to survive and thus hthe advantage of the carronade,rather than fight it out with the boats.

The tactics you propose here are little different than the folittal would use if it was standard PFs on an open map with no other limiting factor (which Is your point)..But Jeff Wile made the point that in the given circumstances of having sufficient force to force the Cloaker to resort to cloak, the PFs without plasma corps are perfectly capable of destroying the cloaked ship. So why further complicate the Federation replacement system with yet another design?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, August 27, 2021 - 02:55 pm: Edit

SPP,

Well, I covered one specific hypothetical situation partly because I'm a slow typist and could never hope to cover every possible situation even if I were a fast one. But I did acknowledge that a fleet battle (which I took as a catch-all that would include things like a convoy battle) would involve different issues. But yes, I think that Fed mixed flotilla would also be able to defend the convoy. Of course, the tactics I would use would be different. It strikes me as just a little unfair to take tactics I suggested for situation "A" and point out they don't work in situation "B".

As to "So why further complicate the Federation replacement system with yet another design? Well, you would do so if the additional design gives you additional capabilites that are sufficiently useful to justify the additional logistics burden. A jet engine places a much heavier strain on your supply system than does a propeller driven one. But by 1945 it was obvious to everyone that at least for fighters, an application that places an emphasis on speed and on high power in a compact package, even the so-called "super-props" were rapidly loosing viability. Everyone who wanted a significant air-to-air capability would have to accept the increased logistical strain of jets.

Now it may be that the additional capability enabled by plasma-F-armed Fed PFs would not be enough to justify the logistical strain. Personally, I think it does. But as I admitted in my previous post, I seem to be losing the battle of convincing other people of that. So be it.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, August 27, 2021 - 03:03 pm: Edit

SPP,

Let me ask one final question, if I may. Do you have a scenario in mind in which a Thunderbolt flotilla would be adequate but a mixed flotilla would fail? I don't mean something in which the mixed flotilla would have a harder time, but some situation in which the Thunderbolts would cleary win but the mixed flotilla would clearly lose?

Some such scenarios probably exist but I doubt they would be common.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 27, 2021 - 03:58 pm: Edit

There is a problem in that people submit ideas and say in essence that this proves the point. A while ago someone proposed a new Gorn ship, and spoke about how the Gorn ship had to have "X" because "all Gorn ships are larger than other empire's ships of the same general class." This observation was going to win the day (and it was). Then someone did an actual comparison of the Gorn classes and found out that they were actually smaller. But the real killer was a call for the Andromedans satellite ships to be better armed. This was proved by submitting a comparison of a Satellite ship to a Galactic Powers destroyer, which proved the satellite ship was underarmed. But it cherry picked the comparison to the Federation Destroyer, at the time the only Galactic Power "destroyer" that had Cruiser level firepower. So I tend to take a somewhat jaundiced eye to simple comparisons or tactical situations..

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Friday, August 27, 2021 - 04:59 pm: Edit

As I've been reading this thread, I've had the image in my (alleged ) mind of a Thunderphase (Fed Gunboat with the photon torpedo replaced with a Ph-1 FH) that has its two drone racks replaced with Plasma-F (FP).

While it is a pleasant enough SSD, even without playing it, I can see it is inferior to most any plasma armed gunboat out there. Still, I'm planning on breaking out my crayons and graph paper, and (hopefully) one of my friends will have fun blowing up a few*...

(* I really am pretty inept with gunboats... )

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, August 27, 2021 - 05:37 pm: Edit

I don't have a problem with it being conjectural but given that the Feds did not go hog wild producing plasma armed SHIPS I do not see them producing any significant number of disposable plasma-armed GUNBOATS. For whatever exo-game reason, the Feds just didn't build that many plasma launchers. It doesn't matter what that reason it, it matters only that they didn't produce very many plasma-armed ships. I suspect this may be the ship that makes us create the "very conjectural" category.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, August 27, 2021 - 11:14 pm: Edit

I think the Thunderflames look interesting, the pl-F is not markedly inferior to gunboat photons.

On the approach, the pl-F launcher can be destroyed, without loosing the warhead for eight impulses.
It can fire every turn as a short range ph-2. For five points of power you get a 20 point warhead, every three turns, six if saboted. A photon is 8 points every other turn for 16 points of damage. The saboted round can be hard to run out, and, baring wild easels, terrain, or using your phasers on the pl-fs instead of the enemy, the plasmas will hit, photons can miss at very close ranges.

The big advantages of the photon are the ability to hit the same shield the phasers do, to concentrate damage, an every other turn heavy hitter, and photons are the standard Fed weapon. Logistics do matter.

In the end, I like these things, if the Gorn provided a way to get significant, and affordable, gunboat type pl-F production going for the Feds, I could see these being produced.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 11:29 am: Edit

A Klingon PF flotilla is going to be in EM or have defensive ECM so getting that Photon shot at range is going to be tough.

AND they have enough "Spare" power to have enough reinforcement to shrug off most long range phaser shots.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 04:46 pm: Edit

"if the Gorn provided a way to get significant, and affordable, gunboat type pl-F production going for the Feds"

Then you would have to explain why they didn't get ship-type plasma-F production going for the Feds.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Mike,

The kind of tactics you are proposing may well be the Klingons' best bet in this scenario. But I think that in general it just postpones the inevitable. The Feds have too many advantages in this scenario. A few points:

1) EW: PFs get free EW; two ECCM and two "swing points" that can be applied to either ECM or ECCM. They can drop the two ECCM if they want to spend more power to go max-ECM. This means that a Klingon PF that wishes to generate six ECM for maximum defense has to spend four points of power while a Fed that wishes to generate six ECCM for maximum offense is only spending two points of power.

2) EM: If the Klingon PFs are using EM to reduce the effects of the Federation fire, they cannot launch or guide seeking weapons. This greatly complicates their ability to deal with the Federation drones. They can use their own phasers and disruptors against those drones but if they are using EM and not also generating ECM, the Feds' own ECCM will give them good shots. If the Klingons are using EM and also generating full ECM, they can't counter their own EM-induced firing penalties when trying to engage those drones (and perhaps plasma-F torps). At range-1 but facing a +2 DRM, a phaser-2 has only a 50/50 chance of killing a standard Type-I drone. With luck the Klingons may get all of them (but there are still those pesky plasma Type-Fs), and I haven't addressed the Klingon PF scout. But even then the Feds have taken no damage, other than the loss of some drones (of which, admittedly, PFs have a short supply). With bad luck Klingons trying to stop the Fed drones, but unable to use their own drones in defense, will be mauled even with the support of their scout.

3) Guessing game: The Feds are approaching range-12. Their drone wave is approaching the Klingon PFs. But do the Feds REALLY intend to fire at range-12 and then turn away? Or do they actually intend to close to range-8 (or closer) and hit the Klingons with overloaded photons and massed phaser-1s? The Klingons might guess right, or they might guess wrong. If they guess right and choose optimum tactics for the Fed plan, it's at best "a wash" for the Klingons. Guessing right doesn't really hurt the Feds much. But if the Klingons guess wrong, it can hurt the Klingons a lot. The Feds, by contrast, never guess wrong. They know what their plan is.

This dynamic is created by the combination of several factors.

- The superior Fed firepower at long range forces the Klingons to close, which means they have to head into the Fed seeking weapons.

- Photon torpedoes, while slow to arm, can be held for reduced power once armed. But the Klingons have to pay full power on the turn of firing for their disruptors.

- As discussed above, PF EW rules, with two free ECCM and two "swing points" favor the offense. The Feds can generate max ECCM spending two poins of power but to generate max ECM the Klingons must drop the free ECCM and spend four points of power. This gives the Feds an effective power advantage.

- And finally, the plasma-F is not a "one trick-pony" regardless of what sometimes gets claimed. It is short ranged, to be sure. But I have not noticed many people complain that the gatling phaser is a "one-trick pony" on those grounds. What "one-trick pony" would actually mean in this context is that there is only one way to use the plasma-F effectively. But depending on circumstances it can be lanched as a seeking weapon (which could force the Klingons to turn away and give the photons time to re-arm, as discussed in my 1:15 PM post from 27 August) or be used as a bolt (and the short range isn't really an issue since all PF weapons except drones are inherently short ranged) or, within five hexes, be used as a carronade - every turn. And the Feds wouldn't need to choose which of these options they wished to employ until the specific impulse of employment.

So I don't think, barring phenomenal Klingon luck, that a max ECM+EM strategy will save the Klingons in this fight.^* It merely delays their defeat.


^*As already mentioned, these Fed tactics aren't appropriate for all circumstances. But I think they are appropriate in some non-trivial percentage of likely scenarios. And I am having trouble coming up with any scenario in which the "mixed" flotilla would be ineffective against the Klingons, assuming the Feds use tactics appropriate to that specific situation; though there are certainly ones in which it would have more difficulties than this one.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 08:11 pm: Edit

Ok been reading this Fed PF with plasma Fs
and then the tactics.

A standard Fed conjectural squadron has. With Leader and scout... has 5 photons, 12 ph1s (half RS half LS) ,5 type A drone racks and 6 G racks. The conjectural flotilla has 3 photons, 4plas F 4 A racks and 4 G racks.

The Klingons have 5 Disr 12 PH2 FX 11A racks and 6 add(6 each)

Now the problem with all Feds as I see it is either close to point blank fire overloaded photons and blow them up or be crippled getting there and/or missing. The longer shot with massed photons and phaser 1s can be nasty. Then running away while reloading photons. With Warp power needed to reload photons slows the Feds down..( why they added AWR) massed drone launches with scatter packs. Covers the pull back and reload turn. So the opponents can not close into overload range and smash the FEDS.

Now the extra Plasma F will help with that against the Klingons. As You can see the Klingon Flotilla can cut its way thru a massive drone wave. As well as put out a nasty wave of there own.

Now with only 3 photons that range 12 shot is well weak. 1-2 to hit a -1 shift means well not scary at all. Prox at 1-4 much better.. damage however.. 24 max but more like 8 either way.

Disr at range 10 1-4 and 5 of them... 9-12damg per turn. You can add in the 6 ph1 (12 but only center line or turning) A good Klingon will not give center line and drones in coming will prevent turning them in. The Klingon will win the long range snipping vs the Plasma Flotilla if played well.

We are looking at a wave of 11 drones per turn it makes a huge piece of do not go there Terrain. With speed 32 drones it is nasty. Your G racks and phasers will be killing drones. You gave up two of them plus A racks for the plasma Fs.

Then while your plasma and photons are reloading. The Klingons are closing in and eating you up with Disr.

The G rack was developed for carrying add rounds vs the Klingons and regular drones vs Roms. Not changing the ship being built.

A well run Flotilla of Klingon G1s I think should beat the mix Fed plasma group easily.

Now if the flotilla is part of a squadron force. Those plasma F can be very useful for slowing Klingon ships down and getting into overload range. In fact I would want a whole Flotilla of them for that. 10 plasma Fs,,, but then why not just bring in some Gorn allies.


Just My thoughts

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Don't forget about ECM drones (with a lower drone throw weight or earlier launch) or the scout with breaking drone lock-ons plus the Klingons also have ADDs to use against Fed drones ...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 10:02 pm: Edit

Vandar,

I don't really see that. The Klingons win the long range sniping duel? Well let's look a little closer.

At 13+ hexes it's phaser-1s (Feds) versus phaser-2s (Klingons). The heavy weapons are out of range and each side can neutralize the other's drones without diminshing their long range phaser fire. Advantage - Feds.

At 12 hexes, the Feds add in their photons, which don't hit all that well - about 8 points every two turns if no EW shift, less than that if there is a shift. But the disruptors are still completely out of range. Advantage - Feds.

At 10 hexes the disruptors become a factor. But so do plasma bolts on turns when they are available. Let's assume the Feds have been careful and have not allowed the range to close to 10 until both their plasma and their photons are armed. We'll call the first turn at range 10 "turn X".

On turn X the Klingons can expect to inflict about 17 points on the Feds, 7 from the 11 phaser-2s and 10 from the five disruptors. (Regarding phasers - I am assuming both PF scouts have powered both special sensors but only generated EW points for one. The other sensor is there to be blinded by weapons fire. This allows the scout to use one of its phasers each turn and still have a working scout channel. It could also fire the phasers as phaser-3s, which don't blind channels. But at range 10 it's probably better to save the power.) So... turn X: 17 points from the Klingons. The Feds inflict 11 points from their phaser-1s and 8 from their photons and 7 from two plasma bolts (a PF can only fire one bolt per turn, regardless of numnber of F-torps). That's a total of 26 points of damage on turn X. The Feds have hit the Klingons a lot harder than the Klingons have hit them.

Ahh... but on turn X+1 the disruptors are available again and the photons are re-arming. True, but the Fed Thunderflames can bolt their second plasma torpedoes. So... Klingons inflict 17 IF they took no significant damag on turn X. But the Feds inflict 11 from the phasers and 7 from a pair of bolted F-plasma. It's approximately an even trade but still slightly favors the Feds (who, in addition, are likely to have lost less weapons/power on turn X).

On turn X+2 the plasma are all re-arming but the photons are available. The Feds inflict 11 (phasers) plus 8 (photons) and beat the Klingons again.

X+3: Feds have phasers and the plasma that bolted on turn X.

X+4: Feds have phasers and the plasma that bolted on turn X+1, and photon torpedoes.

X+5: Feds have phasers only. This is the first turn the Klingons actually outgun the Feds at range 10, assuming the Fed correctly gauged the timing to close to range 10. Given that the Feds outgunned the Klingons on each of turns X through X+4 (by small amount on X+1 through X+3, by much more on X and X+4), are the Klingons likely to have enough remaining firepower at this point to make a difference?

No, the Klingons don't win the long range fight, even at their best range.

Obviously, I have made some assumptions that favor the Feds, especially that they time their closure correctly. But given that they outgun the Klingons in absolute terms from ranges 15 through 11, and given that they can instead use their plasma-F as ordinary seeking torpedoes to discourage the Klingon approach (I think proper management of their plasma torpedoes - knowing when to fire them and in what mode - will be a big factor in effective Federation employment of a mixed flotilla), I still see the Feds as advantaged.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 10:16 pm: Edit

Oh, one last point that I need to reiterate.

Remember that the basic proposal is for plasma-F armed PFs for use against Romulans (carronade). One challenge to that proposal was that such PFs would only be useful against the Romulans. I have never claimed the Thunderflame would be better than the Thunderbolt against Klingons. But I am trying to show that if some crisis forced the Feds to deploy some Thunderflames to the Klingon front, they could still be useful.