| Subtopic | Posts | Updated | ||
| Archive through June 08, 2022 | 25 | 06/10 08:41am |
| By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, June 08, 2022 - 06:13 pm: Edit |
Thinking a bit about this would it be 'easier' to add these breaker booms to existing ships (upgrading them to DNLs) or are they building new ships in this configuration??
[A light assault with one breaker boom (CA + 1), a medium with two breaker boons (CL + 2) and heavy with three breaker booms (DNL + 3]
| By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, June 09, 2022 - 07:44 am: Edit |
Alternately a massed series of volleys of Drone III (or Ix/ IVx) with Phaser heads. (The extended endurance lets them hang out in the web longer before expiring, type III already have plenty of endurance) (Type III don't need you to control them while they are waiting for a target)
Fire a BUNCH of them so they go into the outer web as appropriate. They are instructed to fire at any ship coming to range 1.
The Klinks could probably do it with some kind of specialized Aux. Probably you need around 10+ drones per hex side of web. So a Large fast freighter with 30 drone B racks plus reloads?
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 09, 2022 - 11:51 am: Edit |
Once again, my intent to post a more detailed assessment in the evening has run afoul of my being too tired when I do get home. Presumably a result of my advancing age...
But to address Vandar's question from yesterday:
Let's assume a Battlewagon (with four PF flotillas) and 10 cruisers. This would bring 36 web breakers and is an absolute maximum effort for the Seltorians in this galaxy (assuming no DNs, no X-ships, no web breaker-booms), unless the campaign rules include things like Admirals or Command Points (which would slightly increase the number of available web breakers but not enough, I think, to seriously alter the assessment).
Quote:However with a battle wagon and fleet of ships. Can they knock it down at a safe range.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, June 09, 2022 - 06:14 pm: Edit |
Okay, I'm back. And there was much rejoicing...
One problem with online tactical discussions is that they often involve multiple options for each side and even switching between different tactics in response to a changing situation. The critical choice for the Seltorians is how close to approach the web. Moving in close greatly increases the web degradation caused by the web breakers but also increases the damage the Selts take from Tholian phasers (and perhaps mines). The corresponding key Tholian choice is division of power between web reinforcement and arming phasers. Too much power for webs and the Tholians aren't doing much actual damage to the Seltorian ships.
Covering all possible combinations would make the discussion far too long. I intend to define an "initial" energy allocation strategy for the Tholians and determine how close the Seltorian force has to approach in order to start degarding the web, and then determine how much damage they will take at that range. While this approach hardly tells us everything, I believe it provides good insight into the likelihood that the Selts can destroy the base "at a safe range". (In this case, "at a safe range" is best understood as "safe for the Battlewagon". There is effectively zero chance of the Selts destroying this base without significant losses to the PFs and cruisers. But those are replaceable.)
Overall Tholian (Initial) Approach:Arm all phaser-1s and pay full housekeeping. Keep some power in reserve for EW, shield reinforcement, movement as necessary; and spend the rest on reinforcing the webs. This is not actually the most efficient approach. (Why spend power on shields? They are only needed if the enemy crashes the web, in which case, raise the shields with batteries.) But it is flexible. (Save those batteries for something else.) If I were actually playing this out, of course, I would modify my energy allocation based on Selt actions and tactics.
Lets start with the two pinwheels formed from the base's PF flotilla. A PF pinwheel is counted as SC4 (21/2 for housekeeping), plus one point to a web generator to hold the pinwheel together. So 31/2 power total... oops, but wait a moment. PFs don't pay for fire control ((K1.12) ZERO COST SYSTEMS) and even though it is size class 4, a PF pinwheel doesn't pay for life support ((C14.223) so really, each pinwheel is only paying two points of power; one to hold it together and one for shields. Since each piwheel generates 48 points of power, it has 46 left for other stuff; 92 power for the flotilla as a whole. From that 92 power, 20 is going to be spent on phasers and 10 on "other stuff" (in a real assault that might be more or less, depending on what was going on), leaving 62 points for shield reinforcement from the pinwheel.
The casual PFs are each paying one for shields and four for phasers, leaving 11. I will also spend three power on "other stuff", leaving eight power per casual PF for web reinforcement, or 48 power for the entire casual flotilla.
The CPA spends four for housekeeping and 10 for phasers, plus five for other stuff, leaving 12 power for reinforcing the shields.
Each PC spends 21/2 for housekeeping, four on the phasers, and 11/2 for other stuff, leaving six power for the webs, or 12 power for both PCs.
The PCX spends 21/2 for housekeeping, six on the phasers, and 11/2 for other stuff, leaving nine power for the web.
Finally the PWW (the BATS can't spend power to support the outer webs, of course). It's not going to spend anything on fire control (not needed for reinforcing web); so only 11/2 for housekeeping and 11/2 for other stuff. This leaves 26 power for web reinforcement.
I want to stress again that I would alsmost certainly not be spending these exact amounts if I were actually playing this. These are approximate "ballpark" figures that would vary with the actual course of the battle. Note also I still have all my batteries available.
Between them, my ships/PFs can spend approximately 169 power on web reinforcement each turn, about 2/3 of that from the PFs. But by this time each point of power "counts double" (G10.32) IMPROVEMENTS), so the Tholians actually counter 338 points of degradation each turn. Of that, 48 points goes to countering "natural" degradation (30 for the outer ring, 18 for the middle ring); so the Seltorians need to inflict about 290 points of web degradation with their web breakers each turn, to reduce the webs at all.
(Note also that in a pinch the Tholians could let the inner web decay and put all their reinforcement into the outer web, planning on rebuilding the inner web after the Selts are driven off. But for this post I am assuming the Tholians are keeping both webs up, to the best their abilities.)
At 6 hexes, a web breaker averages 8 damage. All 36 of the Selt web breakers average 288 points of damage, just below what they need to counter Tholian reinforcement and cause any lasting degradation at all! They need to close to 5 hexes, maximum. At that range the web breakers will cause 360 points of degradation total, with Tholians able to counter 290 points (plus natural degradation), the net effect will be to reduce the outer ring by two points, from 35 to 33. How much damage do the Selts take to accomplish this?
The Tholians have 60 phaser-1s. If the Seltorians are 5 hexes from the outer web, they are six hexes from the Tholians behind it. At six hexes, these do 130 points of damage. In addition, the Tholians have six phaser-2s on their Spider-IIP fighters (I'm not going to worry about phaser-3s for the moment) and five more from the mines. (Two standard packages would have a total of 32 phasers but I am assuming they are divided evenly between the sides of the outer ring.) These 11 phaser-2s add approximately 13 more damage points. The Selts are 10 hexes from the phaser-4s (8 of them) on the BATS. At this range, the phasers-4s to 61/2 points each, but minus four each for shooting throught the webs. Still, that's another 20 points from the phaser-4s. All told, the Selts take about 160 points of damage from Tholian phasers, in exchange for having reduced the outer ring from 35 to 33.
Does anyone think this rate of exchange favors the Selts?
I think it's pretty clear the Selts cannot win this way. But they have other things they can do. I believe their best bet is to keep the Battlewagon firing at comparatively long range while sending the cruisers forward to closer range, while also sending the PFs to crash the web and directly engage the supporting Tholian ships. But the Selts will take hideous losses both among their cruisers and their PFs. The closer they get to the web, the more deadly the Tholian phasers become (and remember all those phaser-3s we haven't considered yet)? And of course there is the minefield, with its command detonated large explosive mines. A lot of Selt PFs will die before they ever even have a shot at a Tholian.
We haven't considered EW yet but I don't think it changes the ultimate outcome much. The Battlewagon can't use its special sensors because they are blinded by firing its web breakers. The Selts might add a "free scout" but it won't be able to protect everybody, due to limited number of special sensors, and power. And the BATS can use its own special sensors (subject to available power) because the BATS doesn't blind its sensors with its own weapons fire.
Maybe the Selts can take this base out without losing the Battlewagon... maybe??? But there's no way they don't take horrendous losses among those cruisers and PFs. (Which leaves the Battlewagon extremely vulnerable to that Tholian X-squadron that was scrambled as soon as the Battlewagon was identified.) And recall again this was basically a Selt "maximum effort" against a BATS (not a BATS-X or a Sector Base or a Starbase) defended by an efficient Tholian defense force that still fell far below what the Tholians might have had present.
So I stand by my belief that the Selts REALLY need... something... once they start running into Tholian PFs with web generators. But I also want to hear from anyone who thinks I have missed something (something important enough to result in a major revision of the assessment).
| By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, June 10, 2022 - 08:41 am: Edit |
They need some Klingon/ Lyran maulers...
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, June 10, 2022 - 01:59 pm: Edit |
Mike,
Well, maybe... But I'm not convinced that would make much of a difference. I still think what they really need, once Tholians start fielding PFs with web generators, is the ability to field a lot more web breakers. Arachnid-PWs are just such efficient beasts for wedding cake defense...
I would add, though, that Andromedan maulers really do scare me. That's partly the maulers themselves but even more, the Andro displacement devices (allowing the "mother ship" to "jump over" a strand of web) and the ability to place ships via transporter. Andro can attack a full strength wedding cake and get a mauler next to the base on turn one, something the Romulan, Klingons, or Lyrans can't do even with X-tech maulers.
| By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, June 11, 2022 - 10:11 am: Edit |
The problem is that the attacker has to cover THREE faces of the outer web in close enough (& fast enough) orbit to be able to crash in and zork anyone coming out to reinforce.
I'm not convinced that given the current costs it can be done with any attacker close to parity in BPV.
| By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Saturday, June 11, 2022 - 02:12 pm: Edit |
Don't you have to factor in the 1,500 points of BPV per (G10.83) if the web is in place before the scenario starts?
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, June 11, 2022 - 02:44 pm: Edit |
Mike,
I think you have to break it down into specific cases.
A "standard" attacker has to spread his forces out to be able to attack Tholian reinforcing ships on any side of the web, as you describe. Among other things, this pretty much by definition means that the Tholians are only fighting a fraction of the Klingon (or whoever) force at any given moment.
The Seltorians can concentrate all their forces together IF they have an adequate number of web breakers, compared to Tholian web reinforcing capability. But X-ships and PFs are a problem because Tholian X-ships and PFs greatly improve Tholian ability to reinforce web while Seltorian X-ships and PFs don't increase Selt web breaking ability at all. That issue was the genesis for this specific proposal for "web breaker booms".
Andromedans are a completely different matter. A Dominator with whatever desired combination of Satellite Ships and Energy Modules uses its DisDev to hop over the outer web strand, into the ring of clear hexes between the outer and middle strands. (It has launched its scout beforehand. The scout can sit well outside the wedding cake and provide EW support, while being far enough away that it is hard for the Tholians to destroy.) Once the Dominator's fire control becomes undisrupted, it moves onto the middle strand and laumches the Sat Ships by transporter into the clear hex ring between the middle and inner strands, and then self-displaces forward into that same strand. Once the Andro fire control systems become undisrupted (from being transported or displaced), the Andros move onto the innermost strand and engage the base. The Andros can actually start attacking the base itself on the very first turn. They don't have to spend multiple turns receiving phaser-fire while not being able to respond effecively. This is not an automatic death sentence for the Tholian BATS. Between the BATS itself and the supporting ships/PFs/fighters, they may (depending on the strength of the defenders) be able to destroy the Andro forces (or at least destroy most of their weapons) while the Andro fire control is still disrupted. But this does represent a level of threat completely different from that posed by other enemies and is the one case where I disagree with your otherwise-accurate comment:
Quote:I'm not convinced that given the current costs it can be done with any attacker close to parity in BPV.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, June 11, 2022 - 02:47 pm: Edit |
Ken,
Where are you getting that figure from? A full-strength three-tier wedding cake will cost 472.5 BPV for the web; not a negligible expense but far below 1500 BPV!
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, June 11, 2022 - 02:50 pm: Edit |
Addendum to the above: Note that the numbers listed in the chart in (G10.83) are not the number of BPV. They are the number of web strength points but each web strength point only costs .25 BPV.
| By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Saturday, June 11, 2022 - 05:27 pm: Edit |
Yep - glanced at the values and missed it was the web strength.
| Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only Administer Page | Delete Conversation | Close Conversation | Move Conversation |