Plasma armed Tholians
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R07: THOLIAN PROPOSALS:
Plasma armed Tholians
Imagine if the Gorns, in an attempt to pressure the Romulans to move units away from their mutual border, provided the Tholians with Plasma-F technology.
Basically, almost any Canon Tholian unit out there can be turned into one of these Plasma-F armed variants by replacing Disrpotors with Plasma-F torpedoes on a one-for-one basis.
Where does this really change things?
Well, imagine an assault on a BatS with Plasma armed defenders. Attackers move ships into the outer Web layer to push defenders away from the second tier of the wedding cake, but are forced to then eat Plasma-F torpedoes at the short (zero to five hex) range; twenty points of damage from each one (less phaser damage, of course).
Even remaining at some range (six to ten hexes), the Plasma-F torpedoes are still pretty potent. Meanwhile, the Tholian ships can still hide behind the Web while rearming their Plasma torpedoes.
I've been hesitant to propose this idea for a long time now because it does very much feel like "Tech Sloshing" to me, but it has also long felt like a logical course of action for the Tholians to take.
Anyhow, I just wanted to share the idea with you all. What do you think of it?
Jeff,
This may sound a little strange, but as a Tholian (mostly) player, I don't like it because it's too good. Naturally I want the Tholians to get cool stuff, but the synergy between web and a robust (i.e., significant drone or plasma capability - they already have suicide shuttles, of course) is so powerful as to be unbalancing.* I recently proposed a variant of the Seltorian cruiser that has more web breakers, prescisely because late-era Tholian web defenses are so strong. And your proposal exacerbates the problem.
*A number of years ago I played the Tholians in a non-historical campaign and ended up allying with the Romulans. Once the Romulan player and I got our tactics worked out, our joint fleets (heavy plasma torpedoes plus web casters) were... preposterouly... strong.
I'd agree Tholians and heavy plasma sounds awful, but to be fair Jeff is talking only about Plasma-F.
I like the idea. I've thought in the past that some kind of alt-history Stellar Shadows: The Nightmare Scenario module would be hilarious fun. Give each empire something wild, write a little goofy alt-history to set it up, jack up the BPVs enormously, and add in fun scenarios. Could be a cool way to create some wacky challenges for long-time players 
You could have your Plasma-F Tholians in there, abd could bring in some Stellar Shadows stuff too -- more Gorns with base-busting plasma torps, Romulans firing plasma under cloak, Feds with Megaphasers, etc.
Anyway, I'm sure everyone here will hate this, but as somebody who enjoys the wackiness of simulator races and whatnot, I like when SFB gets weird and lets its hair down a bit.
Considering how people are wanting to make the Seltorians stronger....
Why not beef up the Rocks to match them....
The thought of a Gorn BC in web defense scares the S%$T out of me. Stuck in a web and eat 100 pts of plasma OUCH
I am not in favor of this sort of tech-sloshing.
Thank you, my friends, for all the feedback.
The consensus appears that this is something not wanted by the community at large for any part of Canon SFU.
If it is to be used at all, perhaps it should be limited to simulators, perhaps a Tri-Video series from some Olivette Roche wannabe, April first, and as a treat for players birthdays, but nothing more than that.
I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with that assessment.
How do the plasma cross webs?
Good question, Mike. Answer is, as I originally pictured this, they don't.
The reason why is, it's Canon established that if a Tholian wishes to fire a heavy weapon (Disruptor or Photon Torpedo), it has to come out from behind its Web.
Best way to respect that precedent is to not let Plasma Torpedoes, even Tholian Plasma Torpedoes, have Web Pass.
Which brings up ECPs. If an ECP had Tholian Web Pass ability, how is it that THAT function does, but the Pseudo Plasma Torpedo doesn't? For this reason, I think it reasonable to say that the Web would block/destroy the ECP.
(Besides, when a Tholian DOES pass through a Web, it's essentially behind an impenetrable shield, so what does the loss of the ECM protection of the ECP REALLY matter? )
Of course plasma can cross webs, if the web is weak. That's the problem! The relevant rules are in (G10.25) SMALL UNITS: for fighters and seeking weapons.
In a nutshell, the plasma torpedo loses strength based on how many movement points it has to expend to leave the web. So the Tholians (hypothetically) set up a wedding cake with the outer ring at full strength (35 points) but the middle ring at only one point. This middle ring completely blocks direct fire from attacking ships trapped in the outer ring, against Tholians hiding behind the middle ring. And it blocks Tholian direct fire heavy weapons. But since the true range from the plasma-launching Tholian to the target is only three hexes and the middle ring, through which the plasma has to travel is strength-one, even an F-torp would hit the target at full strength (minus defensive fire from the target's phasers). Note that this strength-one middle ring also provides effectively no protection against enemy seeking weapons trying to get through it... except that those enemy seeking weapons are trapped by the strength-35 outer ring, in which they were launched.
Note by the way that the same tactic would work for drones. If I recall correctly, SVC has said that drones can't be coated with the special materials that give Tholian ships and shuttles their web-pass ability. (My apologies to him if I am misremembering.) But by making the middle web ring low-strength, the defenders could still use drones against attacking ships trapped on the outer ring, though the drons would be slightly delayed based on how strong the middle web ring was. And the attacker's drones are stil trapped in the strong outer ring so never reach the weak middle ring.
Tholian suicide shuttles can pass through even a full-strength middle ring, of course. But they will usually be so few in number that the enemy ships can easily kill them with direct fire or halt them with tractors. There are a couple of sneaky suicide shuttle tricks the Tholians can use and one of these days I may write Term Paper about some of them, if I'm not too lazy.
Been thinking a LOT about what you posted, Alan.
While a one point middle ring may be TOO weak (it would dissipate too rapidly, if not reinforced), it begs for having a Gorn ally (with Plasma G, S, or R) between the middle and inner rings with a middle ring strength of six...
... Which, all in all, explains PERFECTLY why Webs and Plasma are too powerful of a combo in defense of a base.
Quote:Considering how people are wanting to make the Seltorians stronger....
Why not beef up the Rocks to match them....
Mark, I intended to respond to this earlier but got sidetracked.
The Tholians are my favorite empire in the game, and yet I don't think they need beefing up... at least not once you get into the era of X-ships and PFs.
They do have their weaknesses, of course. Their biggest weakness in this period, in my opinion, is that they are weak in EW, at least in open space. Most of the empires have some kind of "ECM assist" that they can use, such as ECM drones, ECM plasma, or the Vudar Ion Pulse Generators. The Tholians have nothing like this. Neither do the Hydrans, but the Hydran scouts are generally better than the Tholian scouts, due to having more power available. For that matter, in the X-tech era, almost everyone has better scouts. The DDX-based scouts all have four special sensors but those require power. A Tholian SCX generates 27 points of power, plus 9 reserve. By comparison, the Fed SCX is 32 generated / 9 reserve and the Klingon FX-based scout (I don't recall off the top of my head it's called an SCX or if it has a different name) is, IIRC, 31 / 9. The Romulan SKXS (again, I don't recall if those are actually the correct initials) generates 30 but has a whopping 18 points of reserve power. All the Tholian's neighbors have X-scouts that can lend more EW by virtue of having more power.
And then there are the X-cruiser based scouts. Almost everybody can field a heavy X-scout with four (or even six) special sensors backed by the power of an X-cruiser (usually a CLX / CWX but the Federation and Romulans can field X-scouts with the power of a CAX). Then there's the Tholians. They have a CWX-based scout in their X-tech PF tender, but with only two special sensors. So their DDX-based scout doesn't generate enough power to be competitive with its counterparts in other empires and their CWX-based scout only has two special sensors. Well, in any given category, someone has to be worst...
But they also have some great strengths to counterbalance their EW inferiority. Most of these strengths center around web. But Tholians are also above average in maneuverability. And (most of) the Archeo-Tholian designs plus a few of the Neo-Tholian designs have above-average shields. But, yeah, their S-Tier strengths are generally associated with web. I want the Tholians to continue to receive cool stuff, comparable to what other empires are receiving. But introducing a completely new technology for them, such as a robust seeking weapon capability, has to be looked at very carefully to make sure it doesn't have unbalancing interactions with web. Their EW inferiority (plus a couple of less serious weaknesses) notwithstanding, on the whole they are technologically formidable. In fact, if you were to play a late period (X-ships, PFs, megafighters, fast drones, plasma sabot... all the good stuff) strategic campaign in which every empire had the same economic resources: I'm not sure but that the Tholians wouldn't be the strongest of all.
Just my .02 quatloos worth...
One addendum to the previous post:
I mentioned ECM drones as a way for some empires to improve their ECM capability. Note that while Lyran and Seltorian ships don't carry either drones are plasma torpedoes, both empires use Klingon fighters. Fighters cannot benefit from ECM drones but they can carry them and launch them to protect the warships. So even the Lyrans and Seltorians have the capability to buff their ECM, IF they have a carrier as part of the force.
Alan, small nit.
Bases, IIRC are able to have fighter hanger pods, and are, I believe considered to be “true carriers” under the rules.
Same would apply to any ship that has the distinction of being “a true carrier”.
If those “true carrier” designations can operate drone fighters, have drone stockpiles and may have special fighter pods (senor pods, Electronic Warfare pods, ) they would also benefit from the fighter abilities to use such expendable muntitions.
Jeff,
I think we're talking apples and oranges. Tholian fighters can use ECM pods but the carrier itself, whether a base or a "mobile" ship, receives no protection from those pods. They ony benefit the fighters.
But I was talking about ECM drones, which, of course, the Tholians don't have. But the Klingon fighters on a Lyran or Seltorian carrier can carry ECM drones. Fighters receive no protection from ECM drones but the Fighters can launch those drones to protect the carrier itself, or any other warship in the force. This gives them (plus the Klingons, Kzinti, and Federation) more ECM capabilities than the Tholians have. The Tholians can deploy scouts, of course (but see my previous comments about Tholians having comparatively weaker scouts) but the drone or plasma empires can provide additional protection to ships in excess of the number the scout can cover (due to limited power or scout channels).
Maybe I just don't understand what you are getting at in your post, but if I do understand it correctly, it's not terribly relevant to my point.
Maybe I should add for the sake of completeness that some Tholian ships can deploy Multi-role Shuttles, just like their neighbors can. And this does provide an ECM advantage for the Tholians in a base defense. In "open space" battles, an MRS tends to either get left behind, or restrict the deploying ship to low speeds in order not to leave the slow-moving shuttlecraft behind. Plus, an MRS is usually pretty easy to destroy. But a (Tholian) base defense changes that dynamic. The defending ships are operating in a very confined area, and the webs protect the MRS from enemy fire. So in the specific situation of a base defense, the Tholians can get more benefit from their MRS than any other empire can.
Alan, I was not referring to Tholian fighters at all.
I did specify empires that operate drone armed fighters (lyrans, for example).
True carriers designation means that the drone load out of those drne armed fighters, (bearing in mind the limits on such things as sensor pods (which really do not make much of a difference in this discussion, and ECM Drones (which do) can benefit the carriers and bases.
As I said, it was a small nit, not arguing against your post.
Just felt that it needed to be said!