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Changing the Photon just for tourney rules is plain stupid in my opinion. I think the photon is just fine the way it is. Do not like it find a tactic that works.

If You want to upgrade the FED., Give it a 4-drone scatter pack. The Fed can then drop off the scatter pack. Launch drones and fire either standard or Prox torpedoes. Turning off under drone coverage to reload. There are of course other tactics to use that is just one i can think of.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 - 06:26 pm: Edit

The Fed doesn't need an upgrade. That isn't the issue. I agree that changing the Photon rules is a non starter (but, well, the "8x Mini Photons, which already exist, with some limited tournament specific rules" isn't out of the realm of reason).

But as noted, many times, the issue with the Fed is not that it is bad. It is that games as/against he Fed often come down to a single throw of the dice. You get to R8, roll the dice, hit with 4 torps? The game is over. You get to R8, roll the dice, hit with 0 torps? The game is over. You get to R4 and hit with 4 torps? The game is over. You get to R4 and hit with 1 torp? The game is over.

People object to the dynamic of the Fed, not that it is weak or not.

Like, yes. People can just not play the Fed if they don't like the dynamic it creates. But, well, it is the literal poster child of the game, and folks would like it to be more attractive for actual play.

There is something to be said for just continuing to make the G-Rack fed work. Or some new version of the ship with 3 photons. Or whatever.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Wednesday, February 22, 2023 - 09:45 pm: Edit

I think mostly everyone is on the same page, that the Fed doesn't need a buff (or nerf). The issue is the _how_ it wins. A relatively poor player can advance/knock out a better player in a tourney because the Fed is "more" luck driven than other ships tend to be. And a good player playing the Fed can fail to progress due to a whiff. It's about _how_ it plays not that it is over/under powered.

Rolling 2 dice, one for each half of each photon's damage (the net effect of Peter and my suggestions) alleviates that. Whether that is better or worse for tournament play is debatable, but I personally think it would improve any tournament on the whole, without changing the balance of the Fed.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, February 23, 2023 - 09:54 am: Edit

I still like a Fed TCF. More phasers and power, but less crunch with only 2 photons reduces the "luck factor". With greater speed it will be better able to deal with the Fed traditional nemesis ships of BP and the Kzinti. And it still has the Fed flavor.

But my idea has never gotten traction. /me shrugs.

The photon torpedo, in SFB, is an excellent *fleet* combat heavy weapon, where the law of big numbers smooths out the probability curve into something much more predictable. Which makes it possible to make reasonably predictable strategic and tactical decisions.

In a duel, the photon is just too unreliable. It also has terrible weaknesses against plasma and the Kzinti. The one Fed to make Fleet Captain over the years was a fluke - a combination of outstanding flying and luck when it was needed.

For this reason, among Aces, the Fed TCC is always going to be a middle-to-low performer in the tourney pack.

Which is sad. Because SFB is built on Trek, and Trek was built on the Enterprise with its phasers and photon torpedoes. Yet, in the tourney game, the Fed TCC just can't hold it's own. Not with any reliability.

Of course the game is called Star *Fleet* Battles. As I mentioned, in fleet battles the photon is positively outstanding. So in that sense Star Fleet Command is quite safe in it's street cred as far as the game is concerned. But that doesn't help in a tourney duel environment.

A TCF *might* solve that problem, and make a Federation ship a reliable contender. If it were to be introduced for serious play testing and experimentation I would return to tournament play and do the work of testing it out against the field. I'm not saying it *will* work, only that it should be seriously *field tested*.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, February 23, 2023 - 01:09 pm: Edit

A couple of comments about photon torpedoes:

Changes to make photon torpedo damage more "predictable" will change tactics, at least in some circumstances. If I know that I will do 45 points of damage at a given range, and my opponent will do 35 points, I am likely to make different choices than if 45 points is the expected damage, but it could be much more or much less. I offer no opinion on whether the changed tactics is a desirable outcome. but be aware that tactics will change.

The photon torpedo is very powerful in fleet combat for another reason, besides the one Ted mentions. The photons on small ships still range to 30 hexes. This is not true of disruptors, or the plasma-F torps on small BP ships. So the Feds generally have a long-range advantge over most opponents, in a fleet battle including frigates and destroyers, not just cruisers and dreadnoughts. This can be especially important on a floating map.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Thursday, February 23, 2023 - 08:12 pm: Edit

You don't "know" though (unless you're at R1 with overloads and no shift). It's just that you're _more likely_ to be closer to your expected result.

Anytime a Fed player is about to fire, they're always thinking about "what am I likely get" and deciding to fire based on that math. This doesn't really change that. As I see it there are two oddities about the Fed that players don't like:
1) Sometimes a player will fire anyway when the odds are not ideal, because they know if they get a lucky third or fourth hit, they win the game.
2) Sometimes a player will fire when they have high probabilities of hits (1-4/1-5) but miss with 2 or 3 torps and lose the game.

I do see a small tactical change with this, relating to point 1, but it's a _good_ change and that's the idea.
1) This is now discouraged, because you have to get _more_ lucky for it to pay off.
2) This is much less likely, thus rewarding the player for getting themselves into the position they wanted/needed.

So yeah, the tactical change I see is tiny, and only a discouragement of the "tactic" of hoping for a lucky roll due to chunks of 16 damage riding on single dice. I don't think the tactical situation really changes otherwise.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, February 24, 2023 - 11:44 am: Edit

Jamey, I agree you won't know for certain. But I still maintain that reducing the uncertainty of damage will cause some people (maybe not you, but some people) to modify their tactics, even if the expected damage is identical.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Saturday, February 25, 2023 - 12:13 pm: Edit

An idea similar to earlier ideas. How about limit the photon to 12 points of damage ranges 5-8 and it still hits on a 1-3? Hold cost would stay the same it currently is - so a Fed could hold a 12 point torpedo if it wanted to fire range 5-8. Effectively nerfing the jackpot and a very simple tournament rule.

Theory:
Scenario A - 1 hits, doesn't change anything, still bad for Fed

Scenario B - 2 hits, doesn't change much, still bad for Fed

Scenario C - 3 hits, game on, other guy not automatically dead.

Scenario D - 4 hits, Still good for Fed, but maybe recoverable for the bad guy.

The next question from here is whether or not the Fed needs something to help compensate it for the loss of the super lucky jackpot game over roll at range 5-8. My first thought is 2 of those G racks the current ship has instead of 1.

By Daniel Bitseff (Cadet_Stimpy) on Saturday, February 25, 2023 - 04:24 pm: Edit

So essentially in exchange for some power saved on holding costs, the Fed automatically misses with one photon at range 8, but it can also get worse from there, depending on rolls? Since I don't fly the Fed, I like it! ;)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 25, 2023 - 05:12 pm: Edit

I mean, the Fed would certainly need something extra to buff this idea up. But it's an idea!

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Saturday, February 25, 2023 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Expanding idea - I would not suggest changing anything else about photons. They would just do a max of 12, r5-8, even if held as a 16 point torpedo.

Easy Peezy.

If we give it two of those G-racks like the one it has the Fed can get some t1's on the board for both offense and defense counter drones. Plus it would have the 8 add shots. This would also give the Fed some drone defense after the first rack is lost to damage and further protect phasers on the DAC.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Saturday, February 25, 2023 - 06:52 pm: Edit

Daniel - yeah kinda. My idea makes it so the Fed doesn't automatically win at range 5-8 with a roll of 3,3,3,3. And doesn't hurt it too crazy much if it rolls 1,6,6,6. The 2 hit and 3 hit option is a lighter punch, so I am looking for a way to compensate the Fed for that more than anything else and to make the ship attractive to fly.

By Ronald J. Brimeyer (Captainron) on Sunday, February 26, 2023 - 11:38 am: Edit

I do not think a special rule just for range 5-8 photons will be excepted by the powers that be. I do believe that a slightly altered ship may be workable. Remove 1 Photon from the current G-rack Fed and add 2 p-3s and 2 warp. Looking at my last battle in Sapphire crown. Assume the Fed still hits with 1 photon on turn 1. On turn 2 he has 4 more power so he could have moved 29 instead of 25. I do not get to R4 and he is fully armed and undamaged for turn 3. Plus he has 8 more power on turn 3. (1 less photon to arm plus 2 more power than current Fed)

This gives us a ship that even if it jackpots at R8 you still have an uphill battle, but a chance of beating it. Without making special rules.

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Sunday, February 26, 2023 - 01:33 pm: Edit

Guys, I hate to be "that guy" but I think it might be a better idea to migrate this tangent to a more suitable area of the forum. Here, it will get lost.