Photon-Armed Neo-Tholian Light Cruiser
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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R07: THOLIAN PROPOSALS:
Photon-Armed Neo-Tholian Light Cruiser
I have a vague recollection that something very close to this has already been proposed by someone. It is, in any case, something of an "obvious variant" so I presume could not be credited to anyone. But it's still something I would like to see published. I checked the "auto-reject list" and didn't see it there... unless there is more than one such list and I looked at the wrong one.
NPL: Photon-Armed Neo-Tholian Light Cruiser
Wishing to increase the "crunch power" of their forces, the Tholians refitted one NCL (damaged in combat with the Seltorians) to the NPL. This replaced the disruptors with photon torpedoes and the APR with AWR. The APR in the CoM were also replaced with AWR and though the CoMs could have been swapped with other ships, in practice the refitted CoM was always married to the NPL rear hull.
The ship was a tactical success but caused unexpected logistics headaches. Photon torpedoes proved more difficult to adapt to Neo-Tholian ships than disruptors, resulting in a longer-than-anticipated conversion time. The ship also required more maintenance than the standard NCL. For these reasons no other Neo-Tholian ships were ever converted to photon variants. And while the battle damage had been repaired, the Tholian engineers were not confident the ship could stand up to a conversion to X-tech. The fact that the ship, even in non-X form, required noticably more maintenance than a standard NCL may also have contributed to this decision. The ship remained in service as an NPL (sometimes with collar though the APR on the collar was never converted to AWR) until eventual retirement with multiple battle honors.
There were six ncls. Two were converted to NLXs, and one was (apparently used as an NCM, leaving three (although in theory the NCM could be used for this). Photon tubes were apparently provided by the Federation, and concerns with trusting them to continue providing te technology seems . . . (See the scenario where delivery of some photon tubes is blocked).
SPP,
I'll have some more comments on the proposed NPL tomorrow; but for now I just want to say... "OOPS!"
The CoM doesn't have any APR to begin with, only warp and impulse engines. So forget that part about converting the CoM to AWR. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that.
SPP,
A few comments on my thought processes in making this proposal; maybe more than you care about, actually.
1. In common with a lot of players, I think, I'm not all that wild about "conjectural" units (though "Unbuilt Variants" bug me a lot less than "Impossible" units like the "Heavy PFs" or "Advanced Technology Light Raiding Dreadnoughts"). Still, I was hoping this would be something that actually was built, rather than some sort of "conjectural" but non-historical ship.
2. I DO have kind of a fondness for oddball "Unique" or "LP2" ships. But if the ship turns out well, there needs to be some sort of explanation why only one or two were ever built. I've never played with Neo-Tholian photon-armed ships of course. But I have played with Tholian ships or fleets that included both photon torpedoes and web casters, whether it be a single ship (such as the CPX) or a squadron that includes, say, a CWP as well as an NCL or NCA. In a nutshell, I think there is a good synergy between web casters and photon torpedoes and that the ship will indeed "turn out well", at least from a tactical perspective.
So there needs to be a reason why the Tholians didn't convert a bunch of Neo-Tholian ships to photon variants, since we know from already-published information that that did not seem to happen. According to Module R12, the "Heavy War Cruisers", while generally more powerful than the standard war cruisers, were significantly harder to maintain. This provides a rationale for why the Tholians only ever converted a single NCL. They liked the improved tactical performance but decided it ultimately wasn't worth the longer-than-expected time the ship was out of service during conversion as well as the greater maintenance requirements. The NPL was never converted back to an NCL but no further neo-Tholian photon conversions were attempted.
3. The NCL seemed to me to be the logical choice for a hull. We know at least in general terms the history of the NDNs (one converted to a space control ship, the other to a heavy dreadnought) and NCAs (one destroyed during the war, though I don't recall the details ever having been published, two converted to NCXs, and one survived but was deemed to be in too poor condition to be converted to X-tech. It finished its career as an NCH.) But we do have NCLs that have not yet been accounted for. As far as the smaller NDDs and NFFs go, there seem to actually have been fewer of them (at least, fewer brought into Holdfast service) than NCLs. So far as I can figure out, more NCLs were operational in this galaxy than any other Neo hull type.
Also, if the conversion went well, an NCL (unlike an NFF or NDD), would be big enough to "make a difference". (And a converted NFF wouldn't have achieved the photon/web caster synergy in any case.) And if the conversion went very badly, the loss of an NCL rear hull, while painful, would be far less a blow to the Holdfast than the loss of an NCA or NDN rear hull. The CoM (containing the single most important system on an NCL - the web caster) wouldn't even need to be attached to the NCL rear hull during conversion or initial "sea trials" to see if the converted hull were safe to operate. It could reattach later, after the basic "spaceworthiness" of the NPL rear hull was established. So the web caster would not be at risk. If worse came to worst, the detached CoM could be cannibalized and the web caster attached to an Archeo CA or CC. So the NCL clearly seemed to be the platform of choice for the experiment.
Alan? If I may, there is one thought I had on this ship.
It's my understanding that the Tholians had the ability to produce disruptors and the parts needed to properly repair them. Photon torpedoes were Federation "Proprietary Property" and I'm guessing that, were there ever to be a "Border Disagreement" between the Federation and Tholians, the ability of the Tholians to repair and maintain Photon Torpedo would be questioned.
IF a DDP becomes a hangar queen (for lack of a better term), yes, the Tholians are out a potent base defense ship, but they have plenty of them. If a DPW has non-functioning Photon Torpedoes, it's out only a fraction of its firepower and is still (IMO) likely better than 90% combat effective.
On the other hand, if spare Photon parts are denied to an NPL, a valuable open space Tholian ship can literally lose nearly 50% of its combat capability.
If I'm right about the Tholians being totally dependent on outsourced parts for their Photon Torpedoes, I honestly believe their paranoia(s?) would prevent them from giving this design a serious consideration.
(Yes, I know they also have a Photon armed Monitor, but in the above scenario, it'd be regarded much as the DDP reference. 
)
Jeff,
Here's the way I see that issue.
No one with an IQ above room temperature (OK, the Tholians have IQs well above human room temperature, but still well below Tholian room temperature - but you get what I mean...) would adopt such a weapon system without ensuring an adequate supply of spare parts and technical data to at least ensure the capability to maintain and repair such systems. Yes, the Tholians are dependent on the Feds for new photon torpedoes. But I don't believe the Tholians would ever have performed any photon conversions (and certainly not to any dreadnoughts or X-ships) unless the deal included a stockpile of spare parts sufficient to keep the systems functional for an appreciable length of time, even in the face of your hypothetical "Border Disagreement". If such a disagreement with the Feds does materialize, the Tholians should have adequate time to cannibalize their less-important photon ships (converting them back to disruptor armament) to keep the DPW, PAX, and CPX classes operational. To assume the Tholians would not have behaved in such a fashion essentially imples they are... stupid.
Also, I don't think the Tholian photon-armed monitor does, in fact, exist anymore. I believe that was an artifact of a now-superceded version of the game.
Alan Trevor:
Rule (R7.R1) says "It is unclear why, with the exception of the CWP, CHP, DD, PPC, and MNP the Tholians never completely replaced all heavy weapons on any of their ships with photon torpedoes. This may have reflected a desire to not become dependent on the Federation for repair parts." Note that earlier in the rule it says the Federation provided the Tholians with a number of photon torpedo systems in Y170. There is no mention of any other sources or the Tholians being able produce the photons from their own internal sources. The year in service dates indicate a strong possibility (not stated) that some photon torpedoes were delivered later (e.g., CWP in Y179). This indicates that either deliveries continued, or that the initial supply was large enough to include some spares for later ships, or that some ships were converted to non-photon variants to make photons available to other ships for whatever reasons. I do not consider that the Tholians, even with Neo-Tholian assistance, could "reverse engineer" photons, even though they did "reverse engineer disruptors."
SPP;
Several comments:
R7.R1 is out of date. The PAX from Module X1R has only photon torpedoes for heavy weapons. This certainly seems to leave the door open for other additions to the R7.R1 list.
Where did I ever imply that I thought the Tholians could reverse engineer photons, or obtain them from any source other than the Feds??? I would think my comment to Jeff Anderson...
Quote:Yes, the Tholians are dependent on the Feds for new photon torpedoes.
... makes it clear I do not believe that. What I thought I was implying was that the Tholians are capable of maintaining and repairing the photons they got from the Feds, presumably through a Fed-supplied stockpile of spare parts, plus the technical data for such maintenance actions. But that's a very different thing from saying the Tholians can produce their own torpedoes.
You mention a "strong possibility" that some photon torpedoes were delivered later, citing the Y179 CWP. But of course, there were also the DPX, CPX, and PAX; all of which were well after Y179. Given the number of late-period Tholian photon-armed ships, I would argue that the "strong possibility" is so strong that it becomes almost irrational to argue the Feds didn't make any subsequent deliveries.
Either that or the Feds must have supplied a lot of surplus torpedoes in Y170.
(Edited)
Regarding R7.R1 being out of date: Does the MNP still exist within the SFU? I don't think it is referenced in either Module G3 or the Tholian Master Starship Book.
If it is, I missed it somehow.
Alan Trevor:
See (R7.35). The Tholan MNP was real with six photons.
My reference to the Orions was simply noting that that avenue for photons is cut off. They cannot (actually will not) go there. As to X ships. There are not as many x-ships and they supersede non-X ships. So it is possible (sorry I was not clear) that the Tholians concentrated their photons on those ships. Perhaps (as stated) removing the photons from non-X ships to do so. I cannot tell.
Hmmm...
Interested to hear that the MNP does still exist in the SFU. But that does leave another source from which the Tholians could strip photons (converting the MNP back to a standard monitor) and transfer the photons to other platforms where they would be more useful. Given the limited numbers of Tholian photons, I don't think the issue is whether the MNP, considered in a vacuum, is better or worse than a standard monitor. The issue is whether the Tholian fleet as a whole is better off with the standard monitor, plus using the photons removed from the MNP to convert some other Tholian ships to photon variants.
For my money, a Tholian fleet with an MNP, a D, and an NCL is less valuable than one with a monitor, a DP, and an NPL. The monitor is so slow that it can only be used for defensive applications. I might station it at a colony planet, and it would provide impressive firepower to defend that colony. But I can't really use it to take the fight to the Klingons (or whomever).
Oh look! The Seltorians are attacking that Battle Station! Unless the monitor is already there (and monitors are not generally part of base defense forces), it won't get their in time to do any good. But an NPL patrolling in the vicinity; it could plausibly arrive while the Selt assault is still in progress (and with more crunch power than an NCL) and perhaps turn the tide.
That at any rate is how I generally look at it. Particularly for weapons in limited supply (photons and web casters*), I personally would prefer all of them on fast platforms that can get to where they will do the most good.
*That's also part of the reason why I hate having web casters on Tholian bases. MORE DAKKA... uhhh PHASER-4s! Put those web casters on ships, especially dreadnoughts and X-cruisers!
But I seem to recall you and I had that discussion several years ago and neither of us could convince the other.
Addendum to the previous:
By "fast platforms", I did not necessarily mean strategically fast, like X-ships, fast cruisers, or light dreadnoughts. For the purposes I was considering, a CCW or a DPW or an NCA is "fast"... certainly faster than a monitor or a base.