Just remember that the CW initially started as a DD upgrade and most of the improvements were in the new center hull. When the CW is upgraded again (CWL/NCA/CWX) then it gets the phaser-1s...

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Thursday, August 10, 2017 - 11:00 am: Edit

I guess you do have to just take what you get when your shipbuilding plan comes down to chopping your entire fleet in half and gluing something in the middle and hoping it all works out.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Thursday, August 10, 2017 - 11:25 am: Edit

You don't drop packs, because they don't actually make you more vulnerable. For a three engine PF, with packs, it takes an average of 4.76 hits to take out your engines. A packless PF takes 6 hits to take out your engines.

But PFs use general reinforcement for 1-1! If you can function without packs, then do the same thing with 6 extra power to reinforce, and it takes far more damage to take out your systems.

If your packs have been more or less destroyed by damage already, then you drop them to preserve the actual remaining engines. But that's the only time you drop them. Otherwise, even if you know you're about to get reamed and have already reinforced, dropping packs to take an average of 1.24 extra hits just isn't worth it.

By Steve Zamboni (Szamboni) on Thursday, August 10, 2017 - 01:41 pm: Edit

I can't remember ever dropping packs on a PF that wasn't already shot to pieces. If I'm already taking damage on those tiny engines, it's kind of late to be worrying about pack damage (assuming there are any engines left to apply it to). That extra power is far more valuable being applied to ECM and shields than sitting back in the cargo hold on the tender.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 10, 2017 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Like all things, dropping the packs is situation dependent. You can look at the article on a fast patrol ship flotilla versus the Moray Eel to see a circumstance when the packs should be dropped. Retaining the packs allowed the Moray Eel a better opportunity to disable and immobilize the PFs and reach the planet. Dropping the packs after the first firing pass (and before the Moray Eel's first biting frenzy) allowed the PFs to remain combat effective longer, and thus have a greater chance of killing the Moray Eel. Part of what made that work is of course that the Moray Eel is slow and predictable, not a circumstance that applies widely, but you have to take all factors into account in making your decisions.

By Mike Strain (Evilmike) on Thursday, August 10, 2017 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Having packs on the PF in combat should be a lot more dangerous than simply taking more engine damage......there should be a definite chance the bloody PF will explode.

Too late for that ship sailing, of course.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, October 15, 2022 - 04:39 pm: Edit

This is a continuation of a discussion that started in the Questions on Ships topic. Ginger McMurray is, I gather, planning on using A-20s in an upcoming battle and I made an offhand comment that I considered the A-20FM to be on the short list of contenders for best fighter in Star Fleet Battles. She asked what other fighters were on my list and I decided the answer belonged here, rather than tying up the other topic. Below is the first part of my reply.

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Well, first we need to establish some criteria. for one thing, how long is the "short list"? Let's say... five different types of fighters.

Also, I submit it is silly to compare a heavy fighter like an A-20 to a single-space fighter like an A-10 on a one-for-one basis. The better comparison is an A-20 versus two A-10s. Now, I believe the A-20 wins that comparison. It certainly takes more firepower to kill two A-10s than a single A-20. But the A-20 has two other advantages I regard as more important; it has much better drone (and anti-drone) capbility and it is much faster (especially the A-20F). If you're fielding either A-10s or A-20s, you're doing it for the photon torpedoes, not the drones or phasers. And an A-20MF (speed 30) simply has a much better chance of getting into firing position against a fast-moving enemy than does an A-10M (speed 20). This may not matter much in an assault on an enemy base but can be hugely important in an "open space" battle, especially one played on a floating map.

Another issue I want to address is capability versus "cost effectiveness". In an S.8 Patrol Battle, cost effectiveness may be more important. You're constructing a force to a fixed BPV and fighting against an enemy of comparable BPV. A fighter that is, in your opinion, not quite as good, but is significantly less expensive, may allow you to spend more points on "other stuff" that will make your fleet stronger over all. But in a campaign, total capability may be more important, even if the more expensive option is only a bit better. In F&E terms, how much total compot can to concentrate in a single battle force? So for this discussion I will be concentrating on what I regard as "best capability", but superior cost effectiveness will act as a "tie breaker".

Now, consider the two top-of-the-line Federation single-space fighters, the F-14D and the F-15D. Their respective advantages are... mixed. the F-14D has the advantage in total drone loadout but The F-15D has the edge in launch rate (J4.242) and drone control (J4.25). Which is better, over all? I don't actually know. I can come up with circumstances in which the F-14D's total loadout makes it superior but I can also come up with situations in which the F-15D's launch rate and drone control superiority give it the edge. So in this particular case, I am going to use cost as the tie breaker. A basic F-14DM costs 25.5 BPV. It's F-15DM competitor only costs 21 BPV. (Both will cost a lot more once the cost for the drone loadout is included.) They are both very expensive as fighters go, and if I were convinced the F-14DM's drone loadout advantage made it superior over all, it would get my vote. But I'm not sure I believe that. So in this case the F-15DM's lower cost is the tie breaker.

More later (and I'm eager to hear from other people with different opinions). But for now, the first two ships on my short list of contenders for best fighter are:

A-20FM
F-15DM.

(One final point. I'm only going to discuss Alpha fighters. I have most of the rules for the Omega and LMC empires but have never been as interested in them so feel less confident in my judgements about them. But if someone who knows Omega better than I do wants to post why he (or she) believes some Omega fighter belongs on the list, I should very much like to see that.)

(Edited to correct an spelling error.)

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Saturday, October 15, 2022 - 05:11 pm: Edit

Unfortunately it's Y178 in the campaign. I only have access to the standard A-20 for now. In 3 turns I'll be able to upgrade to the A-20FM. Also the F-14AM. We're using standard squadrons as listed in module J so F-15s aren't an option on my CVA. I like the F-14A as well so I'm not too sad.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, October 15, 2022 - 07:01 pm: Edit

To me the big thing between the F-14 and F-15 are the special rails. If you are going to take advantage of those special rails, then the F-14 provides something the F-15 can't.

Otherwise it is the F-15 easily. It has the better drone load out, better firing rate, and can control twice as many drones. I don't see it being all that much to debate.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, October 15, 2022 - 07:59 pm: Edit

Mike,

But note J4.234.

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Quote:

A very few fighters have “heavy” rails able to carry type-IV drones. These rails can also carry type-VI, type-I, or type-III (one drone per rail, regardless of size). These can be special or multiwarhead drones.

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, October 15, 2022 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Addendum to the previous:

Here (for whatever it's worth) is my personal assessment of F-14 versus F-15. (Note that this is based on my having a correct understanding of the relevant rules and is subject to correction by SPP or SVC if I am misinterpreting some of them.)

Basic F-14 versus Basic F-15
F-15 is superior. It carrie more drones and has the already-mentioned launch rate and drone control advantages.

Intermediate Versions
Variable depending on specific comparison, but generally favors F-14. F-14A becomes available in Y177 when F-15 model is still "basic" version. (The next F-15 version is the F-15C and doesn't become avaialble until Y-183.) F-15 still has more total drones and launch rate and drone control advantages. But the F-14A picks up two "special" rails. So an F-15 could carry four Type-I and four Type-VI while the F-14A could carry two Type-I, two Type-III, and two Type-VI. Note that each fighter only carries four "ship-killing" drones. I would say the F-15 probably still has the anti-ship edge because of launch rate and drone control advantages, but that the case is much closer than for the basic F-14 versus basic F-15 case. The F-15 has four Type-VI "Dogfight Drones" while the F-14A only has two, BUT the F-15 has no way to carry multi-warhead or starfish drones. The F-14A can carry these on the "special" rails, whether on Type-I or Type-III frames. So the F-14A is slightly inferior for anti-ship work (if the special rails are carrying drones with standard explosive warheads) but much superior for anti-fighter work (or breaking up a massed incoming drone strike) if the special rails are carrying multi-warhead or starfish drones. At this point the F-14A has the edge in capability.

In Y183 the F-15C becomes available, as does the F-14B. The F-15C converts two light rails to standards, allowing the carriage of six Type-Is and two Type-VIs. The F-14B picks up two extra "special" rails. I regard the F-14B as superior - almost as good versus ships and far better against enemy drone swarms or fighters.

Y185 - Happy time for the F-15s
The F-15Ds appear, with heavy rails. This gives them the ability to carry two Type-IIIs (including starfish or multi-warhead drones), reducing the F-14's anti-fighter advantage, especially considering the F-15s still have the drone control and launch rate advantages. Alternately, they can use the heavy rails to carry Type-IVs (though each Tye-IV comes ta the expense of two Type-Is), greatly increasing their anti-ship capability. I regard the F-15D as clearly superior in any F-14 in Y-185 (and for the next 10 years).

Y190 - the F-14C
The F-14C converts the two light rails to special, allowing the ship to carry eight "ship-killing" drones (10 if it's a megafighter); versus either six Type-Is or two Type-Is and two Type-IVs for the F-15C. But the F-14C still has no way to carry Type-IVs. I think the F-14C partly closes the gap but in my personal opinion the F-15D is still superior due to the launch rate/drone control (which I am sick of mentioning and will not do so again in this specific post).

Y195 - F-14D i.e. the best versus the best
F-14D can now carry two Type-IVs (at the cost of four smaller drones). See my discussion in my 4:38 PM post for F-14D versus F-15D. But in brief, I'm not actually sure which is better now, based purely on capability. I do know the F-15D is cheaper and therefor gets my vote as "best".


That at least is how I assess F-14 versus F-15 over time. YMM, as the say, V.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, October 15, 2022 - 10:32 pm: Edit

But where do Hydran St-XM or Vudar (or Andromedan :p) fighters place in all this?

Or the best plasma fighter?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, October 15, 2022 - 11:13 pm: Edit

Richard;

1. Well, I did say (4:29 PM) that I was posting part of my reply. I will get to some of the other empires later. That definitely includes the Hydrans.

2. Andromedan fighters? Did I miss something? The only Andro fighters I am aware of are "conjectural" units from the Threat File.

3. In brief, I don't consider any plasma fighters to be serious contenders for inclusion in "best five". I don't think the top plasma fighters are junk. They have their uses. But neither do I think any crack the top five, among all fighters. I would be happy to discuss my reasoning in more detail if you, or anyone else, disagrees.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Sunday, October 16, 2022 - 04:18 pm: Edit

Plasma fighters. Type D plasma not to bad but they are used to kill other fighters or drones. The Plasma F fighters take too long to reload. Good for attacking a fixed target like a base.

Any other thoughts?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 12:44 am: Edit

Meant to post the next part of my reply today but didn't get around to it for several reasons (including good old fashioned procrastination) and will post it some time on Monday. I did notice an error in my 9:20 PM post from Saturday.

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Quote:

The F-14C converts the two light rails to special...

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By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 10:11 am: Edit

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Quote:

No. It converts them to standard rails, not special. But the rest of the comment is correct. That change enables the formerly light rails to carry Type-I drones rather than only Type-VI or RALADS. So the F-14C can carry 8 "ship-killing" drones (or 10 for the F-14CM) versus only 6 (or eight if it's a megafighter) for the F-15D.

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 11:00 am: Edit

But Mike, see my 7:59 PM post from Saturday, which explains why I believe that the F-15D (and only the D model (plus it's megafighter, the DM) among F-15s) can use two Type-IIIs, based on the "heavy" rails and J4.234.

Of course, for F-14s the B model and later can carry four Type-IIIs. But I don't think 4 Type-IIIs versus two is anything like as much of an advantage as two versus zero.

Is my understanding of the F-15D and J4.234 incorrect? Maybe it is. How do you interpret it?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 11:12 am: Edit

By the way, regarding your "top four", I have been trying to avoid coming to that conclusion. But it's difficult to avoid doing so.

There is this to be said for the Z-YCM (and TADSCM - which is very nearly identical); unlike any of the four listed above, they can be used in oversized squadrons; allowing 24 fighters to count as only one squadron against the limit. That's powerful but also comes with some downsides. Also, only 12 of the 24 could be megafighters.

I have been debating whether the fifth fighter type in the "top five" should be the St-XM or the St-TM, the Hydran fast heavy (mega)fighter. The St-XM has a lot going for it... but the St-TM has... hellbores.

It's an argument for a different thread, but I think a good case can be made that, taking everything into account, the hellbore is actually the best all-round heavy weapon available in the Alpha sector.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 11:22 am: Edit

Wildcard choice that I actually considered but rejected; the Jindarian heavy BOMBER. Unlike all the other empires, Jindarians can actually deploy bombers from properly configured asteroid ships. This allows them to use bombers for an offensive mission rather than purely defensively^*. In that sense they are more like a fighter than anyone else's bombers, which can only deploy from ground bases.


^*I'm aware that the Feds made limited use of bombers in an offensive role. But this seems to have been very rare; and was only even possible when they had a front line bomber base and the enemy front line was close to the Fed line. The Jindos could actually use bombers on deep strikes (if they chose to do so) by sending in an assault force led by asteroid ships. Admittedly the Jindos don't normally fight that way, but the technical possibility exists.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 01:14 pm: Edit

The biggest problem with the St-TM is that you don't get very many of them. So, while I whole squadron would be kinda cool, you don't get that whole squadron.

The Z-YCM or TADSM do have a decent loadout of eight drones and can launch drones like an F-15, but they can only control 2. They are very good, don't get me wrong. But, the F-101CM is a heavy fighter with slight more drones, a two-space bay (for even more drones) and an ADD-6 to defend itself with.

Alan:

If you don't mind me "changing the rules" of the question you set for yourself, can you try this instead: What are the five best single-space fighter *lines*. So, ignore megafighters; ignore specific refits in isolation; ignore heavy fighters and bombers. Don't compare the F-14B with the F-15 in isolation. Compare the F-14 overall with the F-15 overall. And since the F-14 and F-15 will both be there, let's say the best five single-space fighter lines that are NOT the F-14 and F15.

That should give more room for other options.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 01:28 pm: Edit

I didn't answer this:

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Quote:

But Mike, see my 7:59 PM post from Saturday, which explains why I believe that the F-15D (and only the D model (plus it's megafighter, the DM) among F-15s) can use two Type-IIIs, based on the "heavy" rails and J4.234.

Is my understanding of the F-15D and J4.234 incorrect? Maybe it is. How do you interpret it?

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By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 03:41 pm: Edit

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Quote:

(One final point. I'm only going to discuss Alpha fighters. I have most of the rules for the Omega and LMC empires but have never been as interested in them so feel less confident in my judgements about them. But if someone who knows Omega better than I do wants to post why he (or she) believes some Omega fighter belongs on the list, I should very much like to see that.)

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By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Given a Fed CVA carrier group in Y178, which of these would you take to assault an LDR BATS with a squadron of Z-Ys?

12xF-14, 12xA-10
6xF-101B, 12xA-10
12xF-14A, 6xA-20

Both sides will also have ships but I don't know what they'll be so I had to consider my options without factoring them in beyond the basics. Whatever the fleet makeup, they'll be LDR.

I know what I chose. I'm curious to see if people think I'm an idiot.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 09:29 pm: Edit

Given the three choices, I think I'd go for 12xF-14A, 12xA-10.

Plan? Expect the BATS to have the Z-Y as a barrier. Have F-14 launch Type-III MW drones.

With multiple Type-VI for each Z-Y, expect enough attrition (perhaps as many as 7 or 8 of them) to render them a minor factor, at best. Doubleteam the survivors if he sends them your way, but expect him to keep them close to the base.

Return F-14s to balcony. Keep A-10s on balcony for time being.

Have CVA start extreme range (Range 30) Photon Torpedo bombardment in an unusual fashion; narrow salvo of standard fused torpedoes. Unless BATS is able to generate a +1 defensive ECM shift, there's a chance that one of these salvoes would hit, taking the facing shield down by 80%.

Meanwhile, Ph-4 fire from the BATS will do (on average) six points of damage to the facing shield of the carrier (or escort targeted) per turn*. This is one of the few times I would recommend using shield reinforcement; you can take that all day.

(*Okay, he may play your game, in which case, you can expect a 1 in 6 chance for an eighteen point hit IF he can narrow salvo along a hex row. Stay away from a hex row and you reduce that to twelve; while hefty, the CVA can theoretically absorb even this much with shield reinforcement.)

Meanwhile, while you're waiting for the lucky die roll, balcony your F-14s in, rearm them with doubled up deck crews, and balcony them out again.

Once you hit and he has a vulnerable shield, release all your fighters from the balcony and have them charge in. Salvoed drones from your F-14s ought to overwhelm his drone defenses, IF you've attritted his fighters enough. However, expect them to be a good part of his drone defenses.

(Feel free to repeat the Type-III MW drone trick on his surviving fighters; s/he's sure to hate you for that... )

If no Minefield (and that's on heckuva BIIIG "IF"), have A-10s follow their own drones in and launch Photon Torpedoes at range 4. If there IS a minefield, have them launch at range 10 instead. Sure, they'll be inaccurate as heck, but there'll be enough of them. Also, don't forget the eight photon torpedoes with your fleet (assuming four on the CVA and two on each of two DEAs). Nineteen standard loaded photon torpedoes, even with the inaccuracies at a ten hex range, can be expected to do an average of 24 points per salvo.

Of course, if he has no minefield, the A-10s alone can expect to do on average 56 points of photon damage at range four...

Keep your carrier at a safe distance and rotate the A-10 back in after they've fired off one salvo. IF they've closed, since you are keeping your distance, but since there's only a one in three chance for a kill by a Phaser-4 at four hexes, you'll likely have only lost two or three of them; even a fully overloaded disruptor hit can't cripple something THAT tough.

You can rearm their photon torpedoes easily enough; you should have been easily able to reload their Photon Freezers during the long-game sniping duel, even with your shield reinforcement.

At least that's what I'd do.

(Then again, I don't have a very good win/loss record, so maybe you should try something better... )

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, October 17, 2022 - 10:31 pm: Edit

That's close to what I'm taking. The F-14s with the A-10s aren't F-14As. The third group is the only one with A's and special rails so I'm taking it.