| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, November 02, 2022 - 05:06 pm: Edit |
Aaaand scratch the post about scratching that. If there is a WW active at the moment the scatter-packs release the dogfight drones will target it. That would be some mighty fine guesswork on the part of an opponent with a board full of fighters I need to get drones past so I can take their fusions off the board.
Of course, taking those fusions off the board is also a very valid use of 50+ dogfight drones.
| By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, November 02, 2022 - 08:26 pm: Edit |
The Hydrans have LC RN TR NSC BATS which is 33 fighters if I count correctly. They can handle the dogfight drones.
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Wednesday, November 02, 2022 - 08:28 pm: Edit |
Interesting discussion. A few things come to mind:
1. The Hydran fighters are faster than the speed 6 shuttles, so they can control the range and determine when they want to get in range and activate the SP.
2. Could 1 Hydran fighter step forward and activate all the SP, and get all 72 Type-VI drones to target it?
3. Once the Hydran fighters are targeted by whatever number of Type-VI, can't they each then use their 1 chaff pod to get a 1-4 roll to make all drones targeting them drop their lock? So if it all works out perfectly and 72 Type-VI drones are all equally targeted on 12 Hydran fighters, statistically 2/3 (48) of the 72 drones would lose lock from chaff? The Ph-G could then kill the remaining 24 much more easily?
4. While the SP shuttles are approaching, would they not be potentially vulnerable to Ph-4 and Hellbore fire from the BATS? Hydran Weapon #1 for a BATS is 2x360 degree Hellbore?
--Mike
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, November 02, 2022 - 09:18 pm: Edit |
Quote:The Hydrans have LC RN TR NSC BATS which is 33 fighters
Quote:they can control the range and determine when they want to get in range and activate the SP
Quote:Could 1 Hydran fighter step forward and activate all the SP, and get all 72 Type-VI drones to target it?
Quote:Once the Hydran fighters are targeted by whatever number of Type-VI, can't they each then use their 1 chaff pod to get a 1-4 roll to make all drones targeting them drop their lock?
Quote:While the SP shuttles are approaching, would they not be potentially vulnerable to Ph-4 and Hellbore fire from the BATS? Hydran Weapon #1 for a BATS is 2x360 degree Hellbore?
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 10:12 am: Edit |
Ginger,
Thanks so much for sharing your game with us. It has been fun noodling through the various possibilities. Good luck in the fight and it will be interesting to see how it all works out!
--Mike
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 12:29 pm: Edit |
I'm not great with fleets and I never play the feds so it'll likely go worse than it would with a different admiral. :-)
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 12:49 pm: Edit |
The key to Fed fleet tactics is to use the law of big numbers and the crunch power of the photon to wreck a ship and then move off. Fed fleets can behave very different than Fed duels. In a duel you almost need to get close in order to overcome the poor variability profile of the photon. In fleets you can rely on the law of big numbers to fairly reliably estimate your damage, so it's much easier to plan reliably.
Federation fleets are unique in SFB in that they can wreck or destroy an enemy ship at range 30, because photon damage does not decrease with range. However, their optimal firing solution is often range 25 because of the slightly improved phaser - 1 damage (which should not be discounted).
Example: DNG, 5*CA, 3*DD, 3*FF, SC. 44 photons 46 ph-1 that easily bears in an FA (64 ph-1 if you can forward centerline). Easy to setup a range 25 shot, if now EW, that averages 88 damage with prox photons (22 hits) and another 23 with phasers, for 111 damage. With slightly above average luck you can pop a cruiser like a bad zit.
At range 25.
The only thing that makes Fed fleets near invincible is that the photon slows the fleet down, and Fed power curves are not terribly good. So the enemy will be able to charge in eventually.
And then face overloads if they get too close.
Grisly!
Fed fleets are not invincible. However, Fed ships are WAY more scary operating in packs than they are operating as individual predators.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 01:04 pm: Edit |
Ted,
Once again (see my 7:52 PM post from Tuesday), I agree with most of what you say.
But...
The Tholians say "Hold my... whatever it is that the Tholians use in place of beer..."
Quote:Federation fleets are unique in SFB in that they can wreck or destroy an enemy ship at range 30...
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 01:45 pm: Edit |
The same makeup for a Loriyill fleet will do 97 damage over those same 2 turns but for much cheaper, allowing it to stay at range indefinitely. It'll likely be spread across shields but they all have a turn mode of B or better and even the dreadnaught can maintain speed 25 while constantly plinking away. That Fed DNG can only do 17 if it has to generate the same 4 ECCM the Loriyill get for free.
While 49 damage to a single shield in one turn is nowhere near the same as 111 you'll be forcing their ships to turn away or suffer another 49 internals the following turn.
I guess what I'm saying is that I wouldn't mind our group doing another game of Omega because the Loriyill have grown on me. :D
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 05:21 pm: Edit |
@Alan, I'm not sure how the Tholians - unless they are photon armed Tholians (which don't count IMO, as I'm talking about photons) - can do the same thing? Even a fleet of Neos won't have the web fists, and disrupters don't have the punch. Heck, the smaller ships won't have the *range* on their disrupters (and I've assumed a force of 5*CA and 6*SC4 in a battle group) lead by a DN.
I'm mean, sure, they can play all kinds of games with web casters, and they can be competitive, but I don't see how they can wreck or pop a cruiser at range 30.
@Ginger: I did not know about the the Loriyill. Interesting. Maybe I should take another look!
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 05:52 pm: Edit |
>> photon damage does not decrease with range
Also, all photon armed ships have the same maximum range of 30. Contrast this with disruptor armed ships, where the smaller ones may have disruptor ranges as low as 10 hexes, all the way up to larger ships with 40 hex range.
So in a typical mixed Fed fleet, ALL of the photon ships (even the little frigates) can contribute to sniping at long range!
--Mike
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, November 04, 2022 - 09:18 am: Edit |
Ted,
But that's kind of moving the goalposts. I concede the superiority of massed photon torpedoes over massed disruptors for long range bombardment. But what you said was that Federation fleets were unique in that respect (because of the photons). I wanted to point out that, while the Tholians can't field as many photon torpedoes as the Feds can, they can field enough, particularly when also using web casters as web fists.
Quote:@Alan, I'm not sure how the Tholians - unless they are photon armed Tholians (which don't count IMO, as I'm talking about photons) - can do the same thing?
| By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, November 04, 2022 - 10:19 am: Edit |
Alan,
Comparing the above Fed force to that Neo-Tholian force is not a fair comparison. To make it more reasonable, you'd have to make the Fed force more like DNG, 4xNCA, 6xNCL, NSC/NHS. And that ups the Feds output noticeably. (No, I'm not doing the math.)
(Not saying the Feds win. Overcoming those 17 webcasters is a bit of a challenge. Just that when running numbers, let's keep things like-for-like.)
To bring it more back on-topic, that'd be like proposing a Hydran fleet that is all hellbores with no fusions. (Well, not including the fusions you have to take with the command ships.)
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Friday, November 04, 2022 - 11:11 am: Edit |
Speaking of long range bombardment, the Hydrans do have some help against that. We're not using a fully floating map. The map is 4x4. Any unit moving so far as to push the base off of the map will have disengaged instead. Or been destroyed if they leave in the wrong direction. That means there are corners the Hydrans can try to push the Feds into. With Fed turn modes plus reload times it's certainly doable. A large part depends on your weapon status and what your max speed is on turn 1.
What about this plan for Hydrans:
1. Launch the fighters from base. There are no launch tubes so you'll only get 2 plus however many the WS allows. (probably 2). Tractor those fighters. You can get two more by spending the power for range 2 or 3 tractors.
2. Forego arming fusions and go max speed to chase Feds into a corner. Hellbores must be armed.
3. Launch fighters around range 12 and slow the ships so everyone is coming in at the same time. Of course you have to keep the fighters at least 2 away from all ships.
4. Fire massed fusions and any phaser-1s from the fighters and the ships at range 10 and turn them away. Note that you have to centerline to get everything to bear and it's possible you lose a ship on the way in. The TAR is your smallest vessel and takes around 115 hits to pop. At 90-ish it'll be out of weapons.
5. Fire the all of the hellbores on the same impulse.
Expected damage is around 109. That's enough to pop one of the CMs with some lucky rolls.
6. Run away and live to fight another day. Except for the TAR. You've traded it for a CM, which is unfortunately pretty much an even trade.
You'll want to do this while your ships are at most 30 from the base. That lets the base protect the scout while the scout protects your ships.
The fighters should also try to flee as they'll cost you 5 BPV each to replace. That doesn't sound like much when coming out of the 800 you get per turn for construction. But if they all die you're down 125 BPV. Which is just enough to replace the TAR you lose.
I can't think of much else to do because your weapons are such short range. You could try to get to range 8 just ahead of the fighters so you can suicide overload the fusions. That'll add another 50-ish damage, bringing you up to enough to cripple the dreadnaught and keep it out of action for a turn. The alternative is to pop a CC instead. That's a better tradeoff for the CC but not by much and it means getting into overload range (albeit the worst bracket of overload range).
I plan on refitting one of my dreadnaughts to a CVA next turn so it won't actually change what my forces would be but that's not something the Hydrans know in advance.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, November 04, 2022 - 06:20 pm: Edit |
Mike,
I think your "fair comparison" remark makes more sense for an S8-type "Patrol Battle" than for a fleet formed as part of a campaign. As a commander in a campaign, I am not trying to set up "fair fights". I am trying to outmaneuver my opponent at the strategic level to set up battles in which I have a tactical advantage. Since it will generally be impossible to do that for every battle, I am trying to maneuver so that I have the advantage in the strategically important battles, the ones more likely to have a significant effect on the outcome of the campaign as a whole... even if this means I am at a disadvantage in the less important battles.
So from that perspective, I merely wanted to stress that the Tholians can, in fact, form fleets that can match the Feds in long range bombardment capability... assuming the battle really is important enough to justify it.
The problem the Tholians have is that the Feds have the resources to form a lot of fleets like that, whereas my fleet required 11 of the 12 "major warships" in the 312th. After I get web casters into production (Y184 IIRC), I may eventually reach the point where I could form two such "killer fleets" (maybe...). This comes at the cost of committing almost all my web casters, either in Neo-Tholian ships or Archeo-Tholians with web caster refit. So apart from those two "killer fleets" I am weak in open space (away from a fixed Tholian position with web defenses). So in a large, multi-player campaign, forming even one such threat may be a stretch, since I may want to deploy web casters to a lot of different locations. I only stress again, it is possible for the Tholians.
The Feds meanwhile have the resources to form numerous very strong fleets. (So do the Klingons, though they will not be as strong in long range bombardment.)
| By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Saturday, November 05, 2022 - 06:56 pm: Edit |
As the Feds are not typically a drone race, they may control 3 seeking weapons per ship (excluding a scout's sensors). I got "burned" by this in a skittles game a long time ago (F3.211).
You may have drone control problems even with the "dogfight" drones.
Let's not forget the small target modifiers for Fighters. By the comments I've read, it looks like you are using EW. It is a whole different world for me. (I rarely play EW). I vaguely remember that fighters get 2xECM, 2xECCM. They could have EW pod(s) (2 ECM or 2 ECCM points). Then there is the EW fighter that can lend EWP (Electronic Warfare Points). Carriers can lend EWP. And scouts can lend EWP.
The point is that fighters can be "hard" to hit.
The photon, notorious for missing without using EW rules can be adversely affected by ECM. A net EW shift of 9+ will reduce the to hit roll of a proximity photon to 0 (range 13+) or to 1 (range 9 to 12). Ibid for overloads. 0 (range 5 to 8), 1 (range 3 to 4), 2 (range 2), and 3 (range 0 to 1).
The Hydrans are affected by EW, so it is not all bad for the FED.
| By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, November 05, 2022 - 07:56 pm: Edit |
The Feds do have a enemy that can weather the range 30 to 40 photon gig. Romulans Cloak baby cloak
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, November 05, 2022 - 08:49 pm: Edit |
John,
I believe you are misinterpreting F3.211. The first sentence of that rule reads: "Those ships (even those from seeking weapon empires) not armed with drones or plasma torpedoes can control weapons equal to one-half of their sensor rating (usually three), round fractions of 0.5 up." As I read this, the rule appies specifically and only to ships that don't carry seeking weapons (not counting suicide shuttles). So a basic Fed CA would have a drone control rating of 3. But the CA+ has a drone rack so its drone control rating is 6. For a DD+, on the other hand, the drone control rating is still only 3 because the "+ refit" does not add a drone rack to that ship. A DDL or DDG, on the uhhh... other other hand... has a drone control of 6, with or without the "+ refit". So it's perfectly possible for a Fed battle fleet to have some ships with drone control of 6 and others with drone control of 3.
Gregory,
If it's just a question of "weathering" the long range photon fire, Tholians can do it too. (I realize you said the Feds "... do have an enemy..." and historically the Tholians were not Fed enemies.) As the fleets approach but before they enter firing range (except for some desultory long range phaser sniping), the Tholians use a web caster to place a web between their fleet and the Feds. Then, before the web disintegrates, they lay a small globular web and power it up to at least strength 1. That is sufficient to block Fed direct fire and although Fed drones could penetrate a weak web, if the fleets are so far apart, the Tholians can easily use their own weapons to kill the drones. The Tholians could, sitting inside their globular web, still fire phasers at the Fed ships. But at that range the Feds can probably "brick" their shields enough to prevent any damage, though that depends partly on whether the Fed force has any "small" ships, and also just how many phaser-1s the Tholians have.
So it's a rather boring stalemate, with neither side able to force the other to leave unless the Feds have enough of a force advantage that they can risk assaulting the Tholian's ad hoc defenses. But that would require them to close, sacrificing the long range advantage of the photon torpedoes.
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Saturday, November 05, 2022 - 08:52 pm: Edit |
All of the ships in the attacking force except for the DD can control drones up to the sensor rating. Most feds with even a single G rack are that way. At least out of the ones bought for thus campaign. Some can control double.
EW definitely sucks for the feds. A disparity of 9+ is very hard to achieve but 4+ is definitely doable when there's a difference in the number of scout channels as there is here.
Fighters get 2 of each and 2 swing points. Pods add another 2 swing points each. Type-VI drones and ADDs ignore EW. Fighters can't have more than 6 of either except for natural EW such as the small target modifier or erratic.
| By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, November 05, 2022 - 09:09 pm: Edit |
Ginger,
"(J4.47) BUILT-IN EW POINTS: All fighters have two points of built-in ECM (D6.394) and two points of built-in ECCM (D6.393)."
Ordinary fighters do not get "swing points" unless the are carrying an EW pod. I believe the only fighters that get "swing points" on their own are heavy fighters (and bombers) and the Hydran Stinger-X.
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Saturday, November 05, 2022 - 10:36 pm: Edit |
My bad. Thanks for clearing it up.
| By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, November 05, 2022 - 11:10 pm: Edit |
I think that pure Neo Tholian force is still underestimated. No need for globular web, you can keep your speed up and still pretty much block the Feds concentrated fire forever. 20+ web casters is a horrible thing to try to combat, at least without web breakers.
| By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Sunday, November 06, 2022 - 01:16 am: Edit |
Cracking up over here, as I have now for the first time ever heard someone say the Feds aren't a drone race.
But EW is going to be an issue, generally you can assume Hydran fighters will be running 6-10 ECM at all times until the impulse of firing (and if that moment happens ECM is the least of your worries), so you're generally going to want to have all of your ships running 2-3 ECM minimum, or have the ability to shift to it if a firing opportunity at a fighter is presented, to reduce the shift by at least 1.
| By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Sunday, November 06, 2022 - 07:26 am: Edit |
Well I still believe a FED fleet should have a lot of photons. Fire at range 50/50 hit get lucky and things get blown up are crippled. Turn off behind a wave of drones. You do not need as much speed when the other side is dodging drones. Even a Single CA+ can pull that off with a scatter pack.
| By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Sunday, November 06, 2022 - 07:55 am: Edit |
Hydrans don't have to dodge drones anywhere near as much as other races.
The feds in this battle need at least 4 ECCM as every Hydran shop can, and probably will, have 12 ECM.
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