It might be worth clarifying whether or not this scenario permits a Hiver force to purchase one or more mental nodes, under (OD2.216).

(OR10.034) permits up to three mental nodes in any Hiver fleet, yet (OD2.15) states that it was rare to see mental nodes formed on Hiver ships smaller than dreadnoughts, as doing so required special attention from the Hive Queen.

If they are permitted here, bear in mind that one of the benefits to the node ship is the ability to use all of its control spaces as lab boxes under (OD2.33), akin to how the Vari are permitted to use their ships' control spaces as labs under (OR5.03).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, November 09, 2022 - 02:14 pm: Edit

Module C6 is allowed in its own history, i.e., the Paravians were not destroyed. If a Paravian or Carnivon ship in module C6 was indicated as no longer in service through the notional history (e.g. eaten by a monster, it was the only one built and suffered a catastrophic failure of its warp field, or what have you) it would not be allowed. Within the Paravian rules the QWT is allowed to Orion (and WYN) option mounts.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, November 09, 2022 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Yes, the hivers can use mental nodes, but note that there is only 550 points for the fleet.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, November 09, 2022 - 03:55 pm: Edit

Jeff Guthridge,

The Orion force looks ok

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Wednesday, November 09, 2022 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Question (maybe answer in another topic): Why do I never see Orion fleet builds that include the CR / MR ?? That was always my favorite Orion ship. Does nobody else love it??


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, November 09, 2022 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Having been associated wit the MR, and considering it the best Orion Pirate Cruiser that is not an "X" cruiser, I feel I must refrain from answering.

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Wednesday, November 09, 2022 - 06:07 pm: Edit

SPP: QWT wing arcs question:

When an Orion places a QWT in wing mounts (R8.R3) which D2.34 arc would it use?

LS/RS arcs like a Plasma-D?
LP/RP arcs like a Plasma-F?
FA like a Photon or Fusion?

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Wednesday, November 09, 2022 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Garth: Just my guess, but its probably due to it being in that 'tween zone between a CL and a NCA. Its ten points more than the AR which has more boxes all around and a fifth weapon mount. I'd have wanted one for my force flagship, but it having a 2/3rds move cost removed it from consideration.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, November 09, 2022 - 08:03 pm: Edit

Jeff, I noticed a pattern.

Photon Torpedoes, Disruptors, and Fusion Beams can all fire FA. Disruptors and Fusion Beams may also fire L+LF/RF+R.

Some Klingon ships (notably the D5) have extended arcs (FH+L/R) and some Hydran ships (notably the Ranger class cruiser) mount their Fusion Beams on L+LF/RF+R arcs.

Meanwhile, the Federation mounts their Photon Torpedoes exclusively on the FA firing arc; indeed the only exception that I can think of to this "Rule-of-Thumb" are the conjectural Federation Battleship and the unusual arcs for the Photon Torpedoes on the modified Tholian Dreadnoughts.

Given that my quick scan of the SSDs in R6 shows that it appears the Paravians exclusively mount their QWT as FA weapons (with the exception of a pair of RA QWT on their Battleship), I would have to say that Orions may only mount QWT as FA weapons in their wing mounts.

My observation, but since I'm not the sharpest of minds, I could be wrong.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, November 09, 2022 - 08:14 pm: Edit

SPP, Gary, thanks for bringing up Mental Nodes.

Back when I first toyed with Hivers, I did think about them and figured that, since the CA has only two control spaces, I could only make two ship Mental Nodes.

For what they cost (in points), I just didn't see it as worthwhile and while I may come to regret not doing so (), I deliberately chose to NOT use them with this group.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, November 09, 2022 - 10:55 pm: Edit

So far as QWTs are concerned, bear in mind that Paravian heavy war destroyers - and, by extension, Omega Cartel Orion HDWs in "Mapsheet P" timelines - can choose to install QWTs in their RA weapon option mounts.

Plus, given the respective engineering constraints which Orion and Paravian ships are under, I wouldn't necessarily equate the Paravian preference to "front-load" the heavy weapon mounts on most of their ships with the more flexible range of facing options the Orions might be granted in this instance - so long as the 120* tracking arc limitations are preserved.

So, for what (little) it's worth, I would be fine with allowing the wing mounts of Orion ships to use either FA or LF+L/RF+R arcs for QWTs. But of course, I defer to ADB's superior wisdom on the matter.

-----

Thank you to SPP for the Hiver mental node clarification.

So far as choosing to actually use them (or not) goes, I might note that, since the node ship is able to lend EW to all Barbs taken by the ships in an assigned node group, that might be helpful in the event one was to, say, swap out one of the CAs for a Hiver CV, and then pair the CV with another ship for that purpose.

But then, parsec-ages are liable to vary, in terms of whether doing so in this instance sounds like a good idea...

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, November 10, 2022 - 02:19 am: Edit

The Orion QWT wing mounts are probably LF+L/RF+R (and if it could have swivel LP/RP, but does not say it has)

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, November 10, 2022 - 11:28 am: Edit

Gary, I had originally planned on using the "Heavy Carrier," but it has a YiS of Y183. With the groups coming from Y175, they weren't an option. Thought it was kind of a bummer (and would have LOVED to have one or two).

Yeah. Two CV, linked through a Mental Node, operating a dozen Barb-2...

Sigh...

Yeah. There, a Mental Node would have been well worth the point cost, but with the CA based group, it looks to me like it isn't worth the cost.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, November 10, 2022 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Looking over the OR-section data in the 2011 OMRB, I might have to post an errata question elsewhere concerning that CV YIS date.

-----

On a separate note, it would be interesting to one day have the means of accounting for "heterodox" Hiver squadrons, in order to see how much they would differ tactically from the "orthodox" mix of wide-angle phasers and sting torpedoes.

Ironically, it's possible to place a Zosman Marauder cell in the territory of a "heterodox" Hive using (OR23.RA72) - whereas the Hivers themselves do not, as of yet, have an equivalent option...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 10, 2022 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Two things. One, Hiver ships can use the Queen rule to have a mental node, but note that the queen is essential to it. There is nothing in the history that says a given Hiver fleet was operated as a pirate cartel, so you are not going to have that ability in a Cartel (as a lone rogue, but otherwise self-destruct or join a new Hive). Two, the Mental node is NOT a technology, but a natural result of Hiver Biology.

Quantum Wave Torpedoes. They have 120 degree arcs, whether in a centerline option mount or a wing option mount. They can be mounted LF/RF.

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Thursday, November 10, 2022 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Thank you Steve, I’ll revise my force and repost when I get the edits done now that all the big questions are answered.

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Thursday, November 10, 2022 - 08:43 pm: Edit

Omega Cartel, Raiding Force Victor-Victor Mk I Mod I
C6 Paravian Alternate Timeline
Jeff Guthridge Little Rock, Arkansas

Ship	OPT Mounts	CMDRs	Subtotal	Total	Balance
Double Raider (DBR)	A: QWT-FA, B: QWT-FA, C: AWR, D: QWT-LF+L, E: QWT-RF+R	1 TB	100+0+4	104	104
Double Raider (DBR)	A: QWT-FA, B: QWT-FA, C: AWR, D: QWT-LF+L, E: QWT-RF+R	1 TB	100+0+4	104	208
Light Raider+ (LR+)	A: AWR, B: QWT-FA, C: QWT-FA	1 TB	73+0+4	77	285
Light Raider+ (LR+)	A: Ph1-FA, B: PlasD-LS, C: PlasD-RS	1 TB, 3 extra PlasD	73+6+7	86	371
Light Raider+ (LR+)	A: Ph1-FA, B: PlasD-LS, C: PlasD-RS	1 TB, 3 extra PlasD	73+6+7	86	457
Light Raider Scout+ (LRS+)	A: Probe	none	93+0+0	93	550

Note: It is my understanding that with two Plasma-D racks, firing in defensive mode, OAKDISC is not required. If this is incorrect I can juggle the Commanders Options to find the points to install OAKDISC.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, November 10, 2022 - 10:39 pm: Edit

I should have been more careful in terms of what I was referring to, as regards the "heterodox" Hivers.

What I meant to say was that, as of this time of writing, there is no means of accounting for the use of "heterodox" Hives in and of themselves, as opposed to those Zosman Marauder cells which might be operating within said Hives' territories. Although I have posted a few thoughts on the topic over in the thread linked to in my last post.

In retrospect, it might have been preferable for the original Hiver SSDs to have had heavy weapon and phaser option mounts from the outset, and for the original Hiver rule and OR-section material to have accounted for the use of "heterodox" weapon suites. (I suppose that could be an option for would-be Hiver Ship Cards over in Federation Commander, should the FC Omega project ever get around to them some day.)

But then, that would assume the Hivers did not go the same route as the Hydrans, in terms of how the internals of one weapon suite variant would be different from another.

(Personally, I don't think the Hivers need to go as far as the Hydrans did when making the Knight different from the Lancer - but others might take a different view.)

-----

So far as "rogue" Hiver ships go, I do think it would be interesting to one day account for the historical "afterlife" of the Unihive.

According to the Seventh Cycle portion of the Omega timeline, a higher-than-average number of Unihive ships went rogue after their Queen's death in Y209. It's noted that they would carry out raids into Echarri space for years thereafter, often launching from Hiver bases. Indeed, these raids led directly to the Hiver-Echarri War of Y215-Y220.

Of course, any rules covering "rogue" Unihive raiding forces would, among other things, have to take into account the absence of a Queen supporting their operations.

And even then, unlike the "heterodox" Hives (of which a number would exist as of Y175), such a force would be outside of the time frame in which the average Battle Group article is set...

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Friday, November 11, 2022 - 12:29 am: Edit

Gary, I've often had oddball thoughts regarding the Omega Octant. I mean, with the Koligahr having antimatter weapons like they have, what would they be like if they employed antimatter phasers, in particular Antiproton Phasers?

Would I like for Hivers to have Particle Phasers or Antiproton Phasers? Oh heck yeah! Would I like for there to be a version of the Barb-2 that replaced the Sting Torpedo with one of the alternate Phaser-1s? Big thumbs up for that one as well!

Respectfully, though, that's not what BattleForce 550 is about. BattleForce 550 is about going to war with the fleet you HAVE, not the fleet you WANT.

Perhaps we can continue on with these ideas in another thread?

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, November 17, 2022 - 12:42 am: Edit

Just noting again,

John L Stiff (I am wonder if you are doing another force to be submitted, a Gorn force was already submitted)

Dal Downing (wondering on corrections, your ISC force, the carrier escorts need to have full AEGIS, the CVE has 2x FFA as escorts, no DDAs, the DDG is Y177)

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, November 17, 2022 - 06:35 pm: Edit

Minor modification, but it IS a change.

HIVER PATROL GROUP

By Jeff Anderson, U.S.S. California

CA (75): 3xBarb-2 (+42), 2xT-bomb (+8), 2x Commando (+2) = 127
CA (75): 3xBarb-2 (+42), 2xT-bomb (+8), 2x Commando (+2) = 127
CA (75): 2xBarb-2 (+28), 2xT-bomb (+8), 2x Commando (+2) = 113
CA (75): 2xBarb-2 (+28), 2xT-bomb (+8), 2x Commando (+2) = 113
SCL (60): 2xT-bomb (+8), 2x Extra BP (+1), 1x Commando (+1) = 70

Total: 550

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Friday, November 18, 2022 - 02:54 pm: Edit

I’ve been pondering if my ersatz escorts are undergunned for the role. I am looking at swapping one of the Plasma-D armed Light Raiders for another QWT armed one….

Thoughts from the peanut gallery on loading my one oddball ship of the force with ADDs and Type VI-M’s?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Friday, November 18, 2022 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Speaking for my own group, Jeff, if you go with having some ADDs and Type VI-M drones, my Barb-2s MAY have some vulnerability, but at what cost (to you)?

With your QWT armed group, I've been racking my (alleged) mind on how to defend myself against the number of QWTs you'll be bringing to the fight. If you choose to drop that number in order to have these ADDs and Type VI-Ms, that'll make things much easier for me if I have to face you.

Of course, if you're facing the Kzinti (and perhaps to a lesser degree, the Hydran), it's a different story.

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Friday, November 18, 2022 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Jeff Anderson: the current escorts are two light raiders with Ph-1, and LS/RS Plasma D racks. That’s 8 Ph-1’s and 16 D’s before reloading.

Switching to ADD based defenses would allow me to drop the second escort in lieu of another offensive QWT armed LR and possibly provide even better drone/fighter defense.

As the cost of the meager anti-ship capability of the D-racks.

Yeah, the more I think on it, the more I’m leaning towards that alteration.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Saturday, November 19, 2022 - 12:46 pm: Edit

Hi Wayne,

No, I will not be submitting another force. One day I will learn to read the instructions completely.

John