IIRC hidden mines would force a rotation for that impulse, otherwise the AI would weigh the odds with multiple ships near the #4 (the more near the #4, the less chance of rotation) ...

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Sunday, February 07, 2021 - 08:53 am: Edit

I do remember those nasty Shriek missiles. One human player shot phasers at them thinking that they were normal drones. His ship suffered greatly! "Well, I should have used my labs", he said after the fact! He helped us improve our learning curve.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, February 08, 2021 - 08:30 am: Edit

Gary,

I don't think the Juggernauts would "make a habit" of sacrficing ships like that. But they might use it as an occasional tactic against really hard and important targets like a Stellar Fortress or X-tech Starbase.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, February 10, 2021 - 11:34 am: Edit

Another question I might have is how well, or otherwise, each class of Juggernaut warship "scales", in terms of how they measure up to others in their equivalent BPV ranges.

To put it another way, if the Juggernauts were in a position of holding a given region of space, they might be required to send their smaller ships out on various patrol missions. In this they would perhaps be more akin to a "traditional" star empire, as opposed to the Andromedans (whose ability to control territory is affected by which of their ships can traverse the RTN).

While the smaller hull types tend to be more expensive than their counterparts in other star navies, are they flexible enough to work in patrol scenarios in their given price ranges? Or are they less effective in solo missions (or in small squadrons) than they are when attached to a larger Juggernaut fleet?

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, June 22, 2022 - 01:01 pm: Edit

"Specialized" Fleets

I recently posted several comments in the Tholian Tactics topic in which I discussed why I believe that the Seltorians are only the third most dangerous opponent (from a purely technological standpoint) for the Tholians in a strategic campaign in Alpha, with the Andromedans actually being the most dangerous and the Hydrans in second place. I subsequently proposed a specialized "web breaker boom" that the Selts could use to make their ships more formidable against Tholian bases. But such ships would be less capable against Tholian warships in open space, losing phaser-1s and particle cannons. Thus the Selts might "task organize" their fleets, with "conventional" warships (including X-ships, if allowed in the campaign) formed into "space superiority" fleets to gain control of the space around Tholian BATS. Once the BATS was isolated, the Selts could send in their web breaker-heavy ships to assault the wedding cake itself.

One thing I didn't mention in the posts was that, if I were playing the Hydrans against the Tholians in a strategic campaign, I would likewise (to the extent resources allowed) task organize my Hydran ships into space superiority fleets and base assault fleets. The space superiortiy fleets would consist primarily of hellbore-armed ships. I prefer playing on a floating map and closing with a Tholian fleet with web casters is almost impossible if the Tholian fleet wants to keep the range open. (The Andros might be able to manage it with DisDevs.) The hellbore ships have the long-range weapons and the power curve to fight the Tholians at long range, whereas a fusion/fighter fleet is hopelessly outgunned by the Tholians at range. But for reasons discussed in those Tholian Tactics posts, the fusion/fighter fleet is much better against a wedding cake.

And this reminded me that many years ago I had played the Feds in a campaign in which the Feds and the Romulans had both heavily task organized their fleets. The campaign started off with all empires having their most "basic" ship types and then, as the campaign progressed, refits (+refit, B-refit, C-14 refit, etc.) became available to the various empires, as did newer hull types (war cruisers, BCHs, etc.). Thus we (all empires were required to have more than one player, in order to be included in the campaign) started off with the basic, unrefitted, Fed DN, BT, CA, CL, DD, and FF. The Romulans had no Hawk-series ships at start but did have War Eagles (but no King Eagles) and KRs (but no K7Rs or KRBs), as well as the smaller Eagle and Kestrel series ships.

(Pity the poor Kzinti! Their starting cruisers were all Strike Cruisers and unrefitted CLs, no BCs or CCs. Their one advantage (such as it was) was that they were allowed the speed-12 drones from the start of the campaign while the Klingons were limited to only speed-8 slow drones.)

The Feds and Romulans both spontaneously task organized their fleets from pretty much the very beginning. For us, the BT had more "crunch power" (within overload range) than the unrefitted (only 4 photon) DN. But without the refit to the battle pod, it was preposterously slow for open space fighting. (No great speedster even with the refits; but it was ridiculously slow without them while arming torpedoes.) And the unrefitted DD had the same firepower (though it was more fragile) as the CA if all you wanted to do was sit at 30 hexes from the base and launch waves of proximity-fuzed photon torpedoes. But it was less effective in high (or even moderate) speed maneuvering fights. So our idealized space superiority fleets consisted of a DN leading a bunch of CAs while our idealized base assault fleets consisted of a BT leading a bunch of DDs. Of course, circumstances (combat losses, key ships being in the wrong place on the strategic map) didn't always allow us to use these optimized task organizations, but it was what we were aiming for.

Similarly, the Romulan War Eagle was slow for fighting in open space but had a very powerful torpedo. The War Eagles were concentrated in the base assault forces (to the extent feasible). The KRs, with their weaker and shorter ranged torpedoes, but fast and agile, made up the bulk of the Romulan space superiority fleets.

I was wondering what experiences other players have had with task organizing their ships into special-purpose fleets, in a strategic campaign. It doesn't seem obvious to me, for example, that the Gorns would need to do this nearly as much as the (pre-Hawk series, pre-refit) Romulans. But am I missing something?

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Wednesday, June 22, 2022 - 02:36 pm: Edit

So I'm going to say something that I am afraid might be super controversial, but I'm going to say it anyway, but with a MAJOR caveat:
Small sample size. These observations are borne from a (relatively) small number of battles, and most involving the same play group, and very small variation in races involved.

That said, in my personal play experience, bases are significantly under-pointed. IOW, every "fair" fight (BPV based/base assault scenario) I've seen with a base involved has been a significant victory for the base side.

I mention this to dovetail onto Alan Trevor's post with my opinion that if you _don't_ build a specialized fleet for a base assault, you have already lost.

In a broader sense if you have any intel on your enemy or the circumstances of an upcoming battle, you will absolutely have an advantage (or can severely handicap yourself) with your force selection. i.e. don't bring Fed DDs to a floating map battle.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, June 23, 2022 - 02:14 pm: Edit

Just this idjit's 0.02 Quatloos worth, but IMO, with the exceptions of Orions (whose bases have Phaser-1s, NOT Phaser-4s) and Andromedans (again, no Phaser-4s), bases are NOT going to be encountered by chance; any group running into one will do so as part of a calculated plan.

There may be some limitations as to what ships are available in theater, but unless The Brass are even dumber than, well, I am, there will undoubtedy be a meticulous plan that's been tested dozens, if not HUNDREDS of times in the simulators.

Just my 0.002 Quatloos worth.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, June 24, 2022 - 10:12 am: Edit

Jamey,

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Quote:

I mention this to dovetail onto Alan Trevor's post with my opinion that if you _don't_ build a specialized fleet for a base assault, you have already lost.

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By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, August 18, 2022 - 01:24 pm: Edit

I'm going to resurrect an old discussion here...

On 9 July 2019, Gary Carney posted a comment about minesweeping that elicited a few replies. Here's the key sentence from Gary's original post.

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Quote:

Rather than risk derailing that topic yet further than it has already been, I was wondering what empires, be they in Alpha or elsewhere, might also possess an innate "mine sweeping" capacity.

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By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, August 18, 2022 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Imagine using WebCasters to lay a line of Web through a minefield protecting an enemy base that the Tholians are gunning for. The Tholians then send in their Spiders one at a time to set off the T-bombs set for size-6 targets.

Spider reaches the hex adjacent to a mine and is going fast enough to automatically detonate it (speed 7 or higher, IIRC), BUT because the Spider isn't IN the mine hex, it's protected by the Web.

Spiders go in one-at-a-time and HET in the SECOND to last hex of Web; last hex would leave them vulnerable to "Fire into, but not through a Web hex"

If the T-bomb is set to go off at the first target, it'll blow harmlessly. If it's set to go off at the SIXTH target, well, by the tme three Spiders have gone in-and-out, its counter will have reached its threshhold.

I think the same trick might be made to work for Gunboats and real ships too, but not as well; they can't do the "HET at the end of the Web Run" with zero breakdown risk that fighters can.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, August 18, 2022 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Jeff,

One thing you need to keep in mind about that tactic is that it won't protect the Spider fighters from captor mines that are off to the side of the run-in path. To do that, the web would have to be between the captor and the Spider.

I'm not saying it's a bad tactic, just that it doesn't offer complete immunity.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, August 18, 2022 - 10:46 pm: Edit

Captor mines, mobile protective units (enemy fighters, gunboats), and command controlled mines. All of these are things that make the presented plan pretty poor.

It was really just a random musing I had and was not intended as any sort of "Term(inal) Paper."

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, August 19, 2022 - 07:38 am: Edit

Why not send low strength suicide shuttles down the web lane. Make the enemy have to kill them along the way and your fighters should have fewer issues.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, August 19, 2022 - 12:04 pm: Edit

You can also use wild weasel shuttles in a manner similar to Mikes's suggestion. For purposes of triggering automatic mines, a wild weasel looks like the same size class as the ship that launched it. So if a cruiser launches a wild weasel into a mine field, the weasel will be ignored by automatic mines set to trigger on shuttle craft only, (or, for example, size class 2 only) but it would trigger mines set for size class 3. Of course, any empire could clear one mine that way (assuming the defending base and/or ships didn't shoot the weasel down before it reached the mines) but the first mine it reached would kill it. With proper use of cast web, the Tholians might be able to have a single wild weasel take out several enemy mines.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, August 21, 2022 - 10:35 am: Edit

Oops! Didn't look back far enough...

Gary Carney's 9 July 2019 post, from which I posted an extract on 18 August 2022 (above), moved the discussion from the "Federation Tactics" section to the "General Tactics" section. And while the use of web casters or snares for minesweeping was not discussed in those 2019 "General Tactics" posts, that was because their use had already been mentioned in the "Federation Tactics" section prior to Gary moving the discussion to "General Tactics". SPP was the first one to bring it up, including the Neo-Tholians in a list of empires that had special minesweeping capabilities. I subsequently responded that it wasn't just the Neo-Tholians. Archeo-Tholian ships which had received web caster and/or snare refits also had the capability. So I was aware of the discusion in the Federation Tactics section at the time, but had forgotten it when I went over some of the older General Tactics a few days ago.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Sunday, November 06, 2022 - 10:01 am: Edit

How do you like to use EW in your battles? I typically allocate based on what I think my opponent will do while accounting for my batteries. For instance if I'm playing Feds they will almost certainly go for ECM because of how destructive it is to photons. I'll allocate 6 - (# of batteries) to ECCM. That means I have enough juice to counter the full 6 ECM if needed but haven't sacrificed speed.

I also launch an ECM drone for every drone-armed vessel I have. It's likely to be sniped away but that's less damage my ship will take, especially if the opponent is a long range ship and has to use phaser-1s to plink it. A second one launched after the first dies can be especially annoying. Though that's often only available to the Kzinti.

If you don't use EW, why not?

By David Jannke (Bigslowtarget) on Sunday, November 06, 2022 - 02:43 pm: Edit

In my current campaign I run Kzinti vs Carnivon, Lyran, and Hydran. I've been holding an ECM advantage through scouts and drones in the last few battles though it is likely to fade soon. I am confident I would always face an uphill battle without it.

ECM drone - to each major combatant. More than one if the situation merits (but this is rare at lower BPV battles).

Generally, allocate 4 ECM to guarantee a 1 shift (with drone) vs. Carnivons (2 turn arming weapons) or Lyrans (they always have more disruptors owing to DWs). If the enemy underallocates you can battery it up to 6 to get a 2/3 shift which will force them to use their batteries.

Fast ships are wonderful in an EW environment. That extra power can really pay off.

I think not having EW would really hurt some races, especially given a closed map. Of course, that might make some quite in favor of it.

By Joseph Jackson (Bonneville) on Sunday, November 06, 2022 - 08:21 pm: Edit

EW is a real love/hate relationship thing for me.
I use it in fleet actions and campaigns. Because I love it.
In one on one duels, I skip it. Because I hate it.
I'm currently obsessed with scouts and how to use them best, and how to blast them into oblivion.
Love/Hate, it aint easy.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 - 10:31 am: Edit

Minefield tactics: I'll be going up against bases with minefields fairly soon. I can't disclose the race I'm using as we're in a campaign and they're still secret because we haven't started.

I won't have minesweepers and want to get to range 15. What are your favorite tactics for getting through a minefield when there are defenders present? It will be a 2x2 map so I can stay farther away if I want, but my weapons really prefer R15 or closer.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 - 12:26 pm: Edit

To clear a path for fighters, I send in ADMIN shuttles flown by remote. Space them three hexes apart, fly them in single file at maximum speed, and if you use enough of them, even if your opponent has them set on "Delay until unit number `X' goes through," multiple passes by the sacraficial ADMIN will eventually set them off.

(BTW: this works REALLY well for Tholians, who can send their ADMIN down a strand of cast web )

For ships larger than Gunboats, I'd have to doublecheck the rules; it's been a LOOOONNGG time since I've tried breaching a Minefield with anyone other than Lyrans.

HOWEVER, if memory serves, Wild Weasels can be an option.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 - 01:35 pm: Edit

I just double checked. Unvoided weasels can trigger mines which are set to go off on their ships' size classes.

Great idea!

By Jeff Guthridge (Jeff_Guthridge) on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Just remember that unvoided WW has no inherent ECM for itself, and as a shuttle there are limits of who can lend to it. Bases CAN use a scout channel to lend themselves an extra portion of ECCM, so the base can overcome come Offensive-ECM and will likely target the WW before the shuttle can get too deep in the minefield. The Insta-reject list includes several entries on mines and minesweeping, including explicitly mention drones/shuttles/other mimicking the USNavy LEMoSS (decoy) torpedo.

Add captor mines, and the usual mine tactic of putting a belt of mines 4-5 hexes deep at 15-21 hexes range to discourage mid-range sniping, and things get complicated.

Forgive the digression, but this broaches the topic of base assaults. This is one of those SFB concepts that are almost universally considered a rite of passage, but so infrequent an event that it might as well be a master’s magnum opus.

I knew a player in the 90’s that spent two weeks building a defending force with mines and fighters to go with a star base. Had the map laid out in his hobby room and everything. No one in the group was willing to commit to the Real-World time to play the massive battle, not even when he offered others to take a 20% BPV advantage. He had around 1500 BPV in Y178, as memory serves, SB plus refits, two squadrons of fighters, a small group of destroyers, and a bunch of mines. I didn’t see how it could be done in less than 100 turns, and my group often averaged about two turns an hour in 600-800 point fleet fights. Everyone in the group thought this would be a ‘take a week off from work and the family’ sort of scenario. That’s why it never happened.

Our group often talked about doing “the big nasty” if one of us hit the lottery and could hire the rest of the group as pro gamers. The idea of using F&E to fight the General War, but fighting every battle under SFB rules based on the forces that met up on the F&E map. It never got past the talking stage, but was often thrown around as something fun to dream about.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Thankfully SB don't exist in the campaign I'm in. The best one can get is a BATS, a DN, 5 other ships, and 6 minefield packages. Still a scary prospect, of course.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 - 04:43 pm: Edit

Minefields depend on who the enemy is and what range you want to hold them at. Basically I came down to:

A mobile base had one (1) mine package.

A base station had two (2) mine packages.

A Battle Station had three (3) mine packages.

A Starbase had six (6) mine packages. Within that I had a three ring binder with maps of mine packages ready to go (also an instruction sheet for the mines of that minefield) for a base on that frontier. Going to attack a Klingon base on the Fed frontier, I had the minefield worked out and the map drawn up. Going to attack the Klingon base on the Hydran Front, ditto. Going to attack a base on the Kzinti front, and so on. The binder was subdivided ino the the variious other fronts. The hardest one to defend against I THINNK (memory fades, also had holes shot through it from recent disasters which I am sure you will understand) was the Federation because of the photons. The Feds did not want to fight at Range 30, but Range 25 when their phaser-1s become a major factor along with the photons. And spreading out the mines to try to hold them beyound 25 hexes was sel defeating.

With apologies to Alan Trevor, you had to beat the Tholians in the strategic theater so that they could not reinforce the small contingent able to reach their base. Then take your lumps. The Tholians you have to have rules for the effects of siege warfare. And so it goes.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 - 04:49 pm: Edit

I dare you to mail me that binder. :D