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	Archive through December 29, 2022	25		01/01 01:40pm

Hmmm, which is worst? Depends on what's being look on, the WYN is a converted freighter which means low power but that was corrected with a massive APR deck (doubling its power), placing it first in power. The Kzinti and Klingon are tied in power behind the WYN.

Weapons wise, the WYN can surprise with option mount useage but we'll consider its disruptor & drone configuration. The WYN has 2 disruptors, 2 Phaser-1s, a phaser-3 and 2 B racks and with the most power has many options. The Klingon has 2 disruptors, 4 ohaser-2s and one rack, needing a bit more power. The Kzinti has 1 disruptor, 1 phaser-1, 2 phaser-3s, and 4 racks. The Klingons are at the bottom for power/weapons.

The Kzinti racks are its greatest strength but is also its biggest weakness as it has few other weapons. The WYN has more weapons then the Kzinti but not by much. The Klingons have the most weapons but has to manage its power to take advantage of it.

Shielding - the WYN is even at 10-10-10-10, the Kzinti is 15-12-10-9 (refitted to 15-12-12-12 and the Klingon is at 21-12-7-5 (refitted to 21-12-12-12). The Klingon wins the frontal face-off but loses if chased (explains their aggression, doesn't it).

Overall, it depends on what is needed to be done ...

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, December 30, 2022 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Drone speed makes a difference too.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Saturday, December 31, 2022 - 01:54 pm: Edit

The differences amongst the various "Disruptor and Drone" ships make them fly differently and it's up to the skill of the player to use their strengths to be successful.

That's what I'd hope for the various "Photon and Drone" ships, should this go anywhere.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, January 01, 2023 - 11:35 am: Edit

Do be aware that the result of the Federation doing this is that they don't survive the General War.

To get what people want here, where each Federation national fleet flies differently and has different characteristics, means they cannot be a cohesive whole. Heck, in the main timeline they even have a war that demonstrates this to them causing them to abandon this path! Assuming they do not actually learn that lesson and refuse to fix it, they are doomed.

Then, to make matters worse, if they are actually at each other's throats, it gets even worse. At that point, all the Klingons (or Romulans or Kzinti) have to do is start buying off pieces, then set out to conquer the rest. Then take out their servants, too, since they are obviously stupid and can't be trusted. A non-cohesive Federation during the General War means there is no Federation after the General War.

In fact, I would assert that anyone actually proposing this is in reality a Klingon spy! Subvert and divide the Federation for an easier conquest!

[And this has no chance of happening in the Reflections universe. In Reflections the Emo-Vulcans manipulated all of the nearby cultures. No one is opposed to the Imperial Federation other than some Rigellians, and even they knew they were fighting a losing battle. (Which is why the resistors left.) The Emo-Vulcans did too much prep work for this to happen.]

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 01, 2023 - 01:40 pm: Edit

It's worth bearing in mind that, perhaps to a greater extent than ever before, Star Fleet Battles does not exist in a vacuum - even if the majority of the empires therein fight in one.

It's no coincidence that the publication of Module C6 soon led both to a "Lost Empire" preview for Federation Commander on the one hand, plus "lost empire" previews for Federation and Empire on the other hand.

Of course, the SFB game rules in C6 were not explicitly written with a potential conversion to FC in mind. But it is worth noting that the same "Mapsheet P" offered for the "lost empire" Paravians in C6 ended up being used as the basis for that empire's F&E preview scenario.

My point is this: the most successful "what-if" products to date - such as C6 and Module R4J - took the time to consider the broader implications of what changes they were making to the "standard" Alpha Octant setting, as well as the broader stable of game systems in which they are made to exist.

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So far as how the Federation (or ISC) would survive certain later conflicts, I'm not sure if the absence of the "saucer-and-nacelle" hulls (or the "three-prong" ships of the ISC Navy) would necessarily lead to strategic defeat in and of themselves. But, as suggested in my last post, I do believe that the logic of such large-scale conflict would accelerate the process of the Terran fleet becoming the de facto Federation fleet.

To put it another way: in wartime, the kind of political inertia preventing a unified Federation fleet would likely fall by the wayside - particularly if those Federation worlds far from the capital hex (such as Cygnus) fall to enemy forces (and thus losing their fleet yards in the process). But in the absence of the "saucer-and-nacelle" designs, what that means in practice is that, if the Federation manages to make it through to the end of the General War, its navy would be almost exclusively Terran in character by that time.

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Speaking of the Terrans: I think it's more likely that, rather than continuing with the failed design path of their warp-refitted WCA, they'd likely switch gears and build a Y-era forerunner to the Federation OCA.

On a semi-related note: in the absence of the Byrd-class Galactic Survey Cruiser, the Terran equivalent of the historical Federation Second Fleet might make use of the Old Survey Cruiser hull instead.

Similarly, much as the Federal Republic of Aurora converted the Federation POL into the Auroran frigate, the Terrans in this instance would likely adapt the historical POL to serve as their own "Middle Years" frigate. Indeed, perhaps they might later develop a "war frigate", akin to what the "standard" timeline refers to as the Improved Police Cutter?

In which case, perhaps the Terrans might build a "destroyer" hull akin to the historical Federation Police Frigate - or a "war destroyer" version with the same "improved" (6-box) engines as the IPL?

In essence, a "modern" Terran fleet might end up looking less like an upgraded version of its W-era counterpart, and more like the Auroran Navy - only without the Omega-specific quirks that make the FRA more distinct as a faction (such as the Aurorans' "hybrid" Fed-Klingon destroyer design).

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Sunday, January 01, 2023 - 04:30 pm: Edit

If the Feds were a NATO-like alliance, then wouldn't the result look like... NATO?

In other words, I think Gary is right about the Terrans being most of the forces at the strategic level, and that means an Earth-dominated policy environment as well.

I don't see why FEDO fails to win the general war. The Germans can't use American M1A2 tank parts to run their Leopard 2s, but they don't need the Americans to run their supply chains because they have their own domestic ones. The Americans make up what? 90% of all the defense funding in NATO? More? NATO still functions perfectly fine.

Ported to F&E this could mean 75%+ of the fed fleet are Terran, with the rest of the big 5 producing their own fleets as well, and making up the bulk of the remaining quater.

As for the remaining Fed minors like Cygnus, Arcturus, and Tellar Prime, NATO can make a good analogy here as well. Canada doesn't produce its own main battle tank, we bought ours from Germany. We bought the UK's old submarines too. The Turks decided to build their own main battle tank, and paid the South Koreans to design it for them. The Baltic States don't have main battle tanks, but their other fighting vehicles are purchased from countries like Israel, Finland, and Germany. What this could look like for the Fed minors is having their fleets possess zero to two domestically produced designs (maybe give the Cygnans their own carrier? I'm sure they'd like that) and to fill the rest of the slots with a hodge-podge of purchases from the other powers. Maybe go with Gary's idea and have the minors turn OCLs into OCAs or other "pocket" ships (could a POL become a pocket destroyer? Could a destroyer become a pocket CA?) to fill out the roles of everyone's navies.

What would make the difference though could be Vulcan's EPs going to Vulcan, Alpha-Centauri's EPs going to Alpha-Centauri, Earth's EPs going to Earth, etc.

All of this is ancillary.

I play SFB, I don't play F&E, and I don't play FedCom.

What I would like is to be able to throw an Andorian CW against a D5 in a duel, or to play The Admirals Game on the Romulan border with a bunch of disjointed Fed fleetlings against the disjointed Warbird-Kestrel-Hawk invasion force.

The fleet working poorly together is only a product value add in my opinion. We have a Fed fleet that flies well together, let's have a disjointed mess and see if we can make it work.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, January 01, 2023 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Here's where this starts running onto the shoals.

For the Federation to win, or even survive, the General War they need to have a unified fleet. Be that the historical fleet, or something new, the fleet needs to be unified. (And the designs need to work, too. Unifying on fatally flawed designs won't help.)

But ... the whole point of this effort was to have diversity in the Federation fleet. To show the various design approaches that can be used with the Federation weapons. But this requires the fleet to be the opposite of cohesive.

So, what is the goal? To have a diverse, but incoherent fleet? Or to have a coherent fleet that isn't the saucer fleet? If you take the diverse fleet, then the Federation doesn't survive the General War. But, if you pick the coherent fleet, what's the point? You'd just force Petrick to design a whole new fleet with outlines that contain no saucers, but are still functionally identical to those saucer ships. What is accomplished? Is this the best use of Petrick's time?

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Sunday, January 01, 2023 - 05:01 pm: Edit

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Quote:

The fleet working poorly together is only a product value add in my opinion. We have a Fed fleet that flies well together, let's have a disjointed mess and see if we can make it work.

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By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Sunday, January 01, 2023 - 05:32 pm: Edit

Oh I'm totally with Shawn on this one, just because they didn't nationalize a fleet doesn't cost them the war. Ultimately it comes down to money. And the Feds have more of it. What would cost them the war would be never developing NCLs (7/4 ships for 5 EP) or some other _financially_ impacting change. Having three different "flavors" of NCL/CWs produced at different facilities doesn't.

In F&E, differences is weapon composition and maneuverability (the things that make flying an individual ship interesting) don't really come into play. CAs are 8/4 and cost 8, with a few exceptions based around raw firepower.

And a concern I brought up a ways back in the thread is actually the opposite of what Shawn said. The issue I see with this is the Federation coming out _ahead_ by having more options for specific tactical situations giving them an advantage in scenarios and patrol battles (not reflected in F&E).

And your fleet actions would _change_ but not necessarily be worse. You might end up with something like the Hydrans, some ships work in close and others stand off. But that "three different ship philosophies" (Fusion, Hellbore, Hybrid) thing doesn't hurt them strategically, and I don't think a variety of Federation ships has to hurt them in any F&E meaningful way, either.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 01, 2023 - 05:59 pm: Edit

Bear in mind that, the way the Star Fleet admirals tell it, their hands were partially tied in the years leading up to the Klingon invasion by the political machinations of then-Council Chairman Buckner.

But I agree with the idea that, beyond the likes of the Vulcans and Andorians, there would no doubt be a number of member planets who would simply purchase "export model" Terran designs, and/or build some of them under licence.

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In terms of game design priorities, I might argue that it would be best to start with the Terrans, getting an "all-Terran" fleet to function as a "campaign-compatible" force, and then doubling back to try and build "modern" fleets for other Federation members in light of that.

This has the advantage of leaning into the Terran-hull SSDs (and Shapeways miniatures) which already exist in print, while minimizing the number of "new" base hull types that might need to be drawn up (at least initially).

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To put it another way:

One could start by giving the "Middle Years" Terrans the POL (as both their frigate and their police ship), the PFF (as their destroyer), the CL and its variants, the OCA (to include the OSR), and perhaps a would-be "ODNE" (akin to the "Franz Joseph" Federation DN or the Klingon C6) and "OTG".

While the OCA R-section suggests that this hull type cannot be expanded upon any further, this is contradicted by the existence of the Auroran battlecruiser and dreadnought - both of which following a parallel design lineage ultimately stemming back to the old Terran light cruiser. So I'd argue for a "revision of the Air Force data tapes" which enabled the Terrans to build "old" dreadnoughts of their own.

By the time you get to the General War, the Terrans could use the IPL (both as a "war frigate" and as an improved police ship), a would-be "improved police frigate" (as a "war destroyer" equivalent), a new(ish) light cruiser (perhaps a chance to resurrect and re-purpose Mongoose's Starline 2500 CL design?), plus an "OBC" and "ODNH".

Most "standard" Fed fighters are Earth or Martian designs anyway, so they would stay as-is. Although one could perhaps work up a conjectural "old PF", akin to the Auroran gunboat in Module Omega #5.

So far as X-ships go, I think a would-be "OCX" might be interesting - as would an "OSRX" to replace the GSX.

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I don't think the other member planets need the same range of hulls as the Terrans. I'd be fine with the Vulcans or Andorians going no larger than the heavy cruiser, for example. Which would help cut back on the number of new SSDs needed for such fleets.

So, while the Terrans (to include those other member planets using Terran designs under licence) would be the only "full" fleet, there could still be enough room to add a number of other, smaller member fleets in order to provide the required variety of options.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Sunday, January 01, 2023 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Oooo interesting thought, that some member planets might buy Terran hulls but put their preferred "loadouts" into them, akin to the KR ships...

So maybe the Andorians, Tellarites, and Vulcans have a minor shipyard (Like the LDR or Vudar), and some of their own unique modern ship designs, but you also have one or two alternate loadouts for standard Terran hulls, favoring the smaller ones.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 01, 2023 - 06:19 pm: Edit

I'd sooner draw a line between those member planets which insist on building their own hull types and those which adopt licenced Terran designs - at least prior to the General War.

Also, so far as a Terran "heavy war destroyer" goes: might they build "up" from the IPL and PFF to create a four-engine "heavy (improved) police frigate"? Or might they instead build "down" from the CL, or from a would-be new(ish) light cruiser?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Sunday, January 01, 2023 - 11:16 pm: Edit

Terran heavy? Sounds good.

One thing in Y2 was that the Terrans were the only Federation member race with a WDN; a matter that, IIRC, was a point of concern for the other member races.

In Canon SFB, the overwhelming majority of Federation ships have Terran names. That would suggest (to me) that, in a FEDO* timeline, the thought of there being far more Terran ships than anyone elses makes a great deal of sense.

As far as mixed fleets go, if I remember history correctly, the Australian cruiser HMAS Australia was lost in the same naval battle that the five Sullivan brothers were killed, so there is historical precedent for mixed member fleets. Who knows; maybe they could be even more common than mixed empire fleets in the Canon universe.

(*FEDO. I love that term! )