Archive through March 26, 2023
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: Star Fleet Battles Online: Sapphire Series Tournaments: Sapphire Star 13 (March 2023): Archive through March 26, 2023
By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, March 22, 2023 - 09:08 am: Edit

Just a friendly bump--we need a link to the tree, and a "report game results" link. Thanks!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, March 22, 2023 - 10:40 am: Edit

Quote:

http://rwschirmer.weebly.com/uploads/5/6/7/3/56735785/sfbtrv4.pdf

Robert's excellent old Stats page has the Fed winning 46% in Ace v Ace games, with the addition of the G-Rack I would guess the Fed would be right around the 50/50 mark!

Valid point on the G rack. It will be interesting to see how much of a difference it makes in the long term.

But compare to WBS (58%), HYD (54%), Zin (53%), and so on. Fed is #10 out of 18, making it a mid-range performer. Klingon comes in at #5 (53%), giving the Klink a decisive advantage over the Fed.

My point is that the Fed TCC should not be a mid range performer. It shouldn't be #1 either, but it should be right next to the Klingon. Why? Because the SFU is based heavily on Trek.

Also, these statistics don't bear out how well the Fed TCC does over many games; i.e., what is their RAT win stats?

Also, the FED has too many nemesis ships that just kill it. The FEd has a 39% win against Gorn, 35% against RKR, 39% against WAX, 36% against WBS, 39% against Zin, 41% against ISC. In fact, only has 50% or better against AND, FED, LDR, THA, and THN - that's 5 out of 18 ships in the field.

Compare that to the WBS, which has a lower than 50% win rate against ONLY Klingon (46%) and WAX (40%) - and then neither is in the 30's like the Fed has several ships opposing it.

So, just referring to the Fed win rate of 46% doesn't tell the whole story - G rack or no.

Where the Fed needs help is against it's traditional nemesis ships, where the win rate should be improved (ideally, which I know is impossible, but ideally) to 50%.

Because of the nature of the photons (which are immutable in the game), that is not really possible to fix in the TCC with a simple G rack. It will help mostly against the WAX, KLI, and ZIN, but it doesn't make much difference against BP.

That's what the TCF is for. You nerf the luck factor of the photon jackpot by going down to just two photons. The improved phaser suit and greatly improved power curve are the advantage you get out of it, which allows you to move fast enough to be competitive against BP ships.

At least, that is the theory. Whether or not it actually will work out needs to be put to the test. Which is what I'm asking for.

Put a TCF on the client. I'll playtest it (and hopefully get a few players to help by either flying it or playing against it). Let's see how it does and generate some data.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, March 22, 2023 - 11:04 am: Edit

What kind of TCF are you suggesting? Like, basically, the stock version? I think that is:

2xPhoton FA
4xP1 FH
4xP1 FA/L and FA/R (2+2)
2xP1 360
2xP3 360
1x G rack
40 power? (32w/4awr/4imp)

That seem the the right thing?

(I'm not taking a stance here, I'm just making sure I know what you are talking about :-)

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, March 22, 2023 - 11:07 am: Edit

There already is a few Fed playtest ships including a TCF in the client. Not sure they are what everyone is looking for but something is there.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, March 22, 2023 - 11:12 am: Edit

The one out there already looks playable. It has 7 p1, 4 p3, 3 photons, 40 power, 1 G-rack TM-D. It also has 2 more rear hull than the TCA.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, March 22, 2023 - 12:24 pm: Edit

@Peter: Yes. That was my proposal. Originally I was thinking the vanilla TCF with 2 photons with an 11 point phaser capacitor, a G rack, and 42 power (36 warp, 4 impulse, 2 APR, 4 battery).

However, thinking about it more it would have to be modified to be a tourney contender. I would cut out 2 warp engines (so 34 warp and 40 power total). Increase batteries from 4 to 5. Confirm that the APR is not AWR. G rack would be limited as the current Fed TCC G rack is limited. Otherwise, as vanilla Fed CF.


@Jack: Let's call that modified version of the Fed already on the client the "TCA" as the official version is the TCC. The TCA may be viable, but I'm concerned it's too nerfed. Losing a photon is big. The 1*ph-1 for 2*ph-3 is a wash. Really all it's getting for losing a photon is 40 power. Which, mind you, is also big - particularly because you have fewer photons to arm. However, it can move and shoot, so maybe isn't so bad. Dunno, would have to test it out too.

I'm willing to test the TCA *and* the TCF. I just want to see a Fed tournament cruiser that has the ability to generate the kind of statistics that the Klingon cruiser generates (i.e., the Fed and the Klink are neck and neck contenders in the top tier of thoroughbreds).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, March 22, 2023 - 12:28 pm: Edit

Not that it matters, but in the regular game Star Fleet *is* a top tier competitor in the field of many different empires. When playing in squadrons or fleets the law of big numbers smooths out the photon luck problem into results that are usually predictable when you fire - and having SC4 ships that can reach out and touch you at 30 hexes for 8 damage (or 4 with proxes) is quite deadly in fleet battles.

So my beef is not with the photon or the Federation design. My beef is that the overall tournament performance of the TCC is febrile and it shouldn't be so in a game where the "Enterprise" is legendary.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Wednesday, March 22, 2023 - 01:15 pm: Edit

It always struck me as funny that the legendary "Enterprise" has a D Turn Mode! :)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, March 22, 2023 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Oh, yeah, those basic Fast cruisers have *36* warp, not 32.

I suspect that would be too much. So having, like:

2x16 box warp
4xImp
4xAPR/AWR

40 power, 32 warp (so fast, relative to other TCs). 2x Photons, 10xP1, 2xP3, G rack. Everything else is largely the same.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, March 22, 2023 - 02:31 pm: Edit

@Peter: Yeah, that's another version that would work. I prefer either 4*AWR and 32*warp or 2*APR and 34*warp so the ship could move speed 31 and arm standard photons. But 40 power either way, and everything else as you stated.

One other thing I would need to check. If the TCF has anything other than 30-30-30-24-24-24 shields, then it would be modified to have that so that the TCF would have the same shields as most of the TCs.

By Ronald J. Brimeyer (Captainron) on Wednesday, March 22, 2023 - 03:10 pm: Edit

Jack, The 3 photon ship currently on the client gives up 1 photon and 1 P-1 for 2 power and 2 p-3s. Not an even trade in my opinion. Giving up 1 photon for 2 power and 2 p-3s is more balanced. That gives the the ship more speed and 2 p-3s to help deal with plasma or drones. It also drops it's max alpha punch by 8 to 16 points depending on range.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Thursday, March 23, 2023 - 03:19 am: Edit

32 or 34 Warp would make the ship super interesting, the option to HET at faster than 26 would certainly improve the D Turn Mode!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, March 23, 2023 - 10:59 am: Edit

@Jason: Exactly! That's what I'm going for - an interesting Fed option that is more maneuverable and can HET at 28 (32 warp) or even 30 (34 warp).

I think the TCF would be sufficiently different in performance that it would have a quite different RPS chart. It would perform substantially better than the TCC against BP and D&D, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had reduced performance against DF ships like the HYD, LYR, and ORI. Which is good, too.

I don't want to create a TC that dominates the field. I just want a Fed TC that can perform *consistently* in the field - and not consistently poorly like the Fed TCC does.

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Thursday, March 23, 2023 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Seems to me it is performing fine!

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Thursday, March 23, 2023 - 02:08 pm: Edit

maybe move to a fed tcf topic?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, March 23, 2023 - 02:34 pm: Edit

I am requesting a new topic over in the tournament zone. If approved by Jean and the powers-that-be, the discussion will go over to there. Stay tuned.

By David Jannke (Bigslowtarget) on Friday, March 24, 2023 - 10:06 pm: Edit

Now entering turn 12 of BigSlowTarget GBS v captainron Arch-T

By Ronald J. Brimeyer (Captainron) on Friday, March 24, 2023 - 11:47 pm: Edit

It took 14 turns, but I managed to come out on top. Well played David.

By David Jannke (Bigslowtarget) on Friday, March 24, 2023 - 11:49 pm: Edit

I don't see a way to report so

captainron(Archeo) wins over BigSlowTarget (GBS)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, March 25, 2023 - 07:37 am: Edit

Still need a tree and a report link. Thanks!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, March 25, 2023 - 07:45 am: Edit

bakija (ZIN) vs Kingzilla (TKR?)

Tentatively starting Monday, 3/27, 7:00 pm ET.

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Saturday, March 25, 2023 - 09:55 am: Edit

I will be there with bells on

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Saturday, March 25, 2023 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Stephen McCann (Moose) WYN AxBC (PH-1, Ph-1, Ph-G, Ph-1)
Andrew J. Koch (Droid) Lyran

who won this game?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, March 25, 2023 - 09:30 pm: Edit

We need a tree!

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Sunday, March 26, 2023 - 04:35 pm: Edit

Tree is added. I did not see who won the kingzilla vs. Berkstrom.

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